<p>The dirty secret about our scientific edge is that it's largely produced by foreigners and immigrants. Americans don't do science.</p>
<p>The facts are plain. U.S. visa procedures have become far too cumbersome, and bureaucrats are turning down far more applications than ever before. One crucial result is the dramatic decline of foreign students in the U.S.the first shift downward in 30 years. Three new reports document the magnitude of this fall. Undergraduate enrollment from China dropped 20 percent this year; from India, 9 percent; from Japan, 14 percent. The declines are even worse in graduate schools: applications from China have dropped 45 percent; from India, 28 percent.</p>
<p>Some Americans might say, "Good riddance, it's their loss." Actually the greater loss is ours. American universities benefit from having the best students from across the globe. But the single most deadly effect of this trend is the erosion of American capacity in science and technology. The U.S. economy has powered ahead in large part because of the amazing productivity of America's science and technology. Yet that research is now done largely by foreign students. The National Science Board (NSB) documented this reality last year, finding that 38 percent of doctorate holders in America's science and engineering work force are foreign-born. Foreigners make up more than half the students enrolled in science and engineering programs. The dirty little secret about America's scientific edge is that it's largely produced by foreigners and immigrants.</p>
<p>Americans don't do science anymore. The NSB put out another report this year that showed the United States now ranks 17th (among nations surveyed) in the proportion of college students majoring in science and engineering. In 1975 the United States ranked third. The recent decline in foreign applications is having a direct effect on science programs. Three years ago there were 385 computer-science majors at MIT. Today there are 240. The trend is similar at Stanford, Carnegie Mellon and the University of California, Berkeley.</p>
<p>A further cruel irony. Last year, when it was painfully hard for Indonesian students to get visas to study in the US, the Defense department re-established it's affiliation with the Indonesian military for the purposes of training troops. So, an Indonesian can come to the US much more readily to learn to be a soldier than a scientist.</p>
<p>"The U.S. economy has powered ahead in large part because of the amazing productivity of America's science and technology." This is quite true - unfortunately, nobody seems to want to be a part of this productivity upon which our economy ultimately rests. Ask most American parents - do they want their kid to be an innovator (high risk, high return) or a professional employee (doctor/lawyer, much lower risk and still a pretty high paycheck)? This is a far cry from many other developed countries (especially in south and east asia) where a large proportion of people want their kids to grow up and become an engineer.</p>
<p>It's ironic, but in the US, which is one of the best places in the world to start your own company, most of the people doing innovation, like Simba says, are foreign. It's a problem for us in the global economy, though, because now, unlike fifty years ago, other countries can manufacture goods just as well (if not better) than we can. In the fast paced world of high-technology, you can't succeed in the long term through force alone; you have to have the best educated, most productive work force (something many top innovators agree upon). In place of a well educated, home-grown work force, we import people. This works as long as our standard of living is high enough to draw people here. Hopefully it will continue long enough for us to re-evaluate our stance towards innovation and scientific education.</p>
<p>The argument in the thread doesn't fit the thread's title. I'm generally favorably disposed to United States universities admitting lots and lots of foreign students, and thus generally favorably disposed to United States student visa regulations continuing to allow the large inflow of students they long have allowed. It is simply a fact, however, that some student visa holders came into the United States to learn how to crash airliners into buildings, and since then, there has been some concern about whether the former student visa system may have been a little bit too lax. </p>
<p>As for Americans not pursuing college careers in science, that often is because of the appallingly bad preparation they receive in math and science in primary and secondary schooling. Then, when American-born children notice that people without quantitative college majors can make as much money as science majors, they lose most of the incentive they might otherwise have to catch up in science and math in college. I have one math-interested child, and the only way I can make sure his skill level is high enough to be competitive in the best science programs at the best colleges is to make frequent use of foreign-published math and science textbooks for his primary and secondary schooling. He may go into a field in which he can make some innovative discoveries, and enjoy his life at whatever salary he makes, but most American kids don't get the chance to have this kind of preparation, which is routine in many other countries that are much poorer.</p>
<p>While k-12 math and science education in the US leaves a lot to be desired, I do not think that is the reason why so few Americans become math and science majors in college or pursue math and science Ph.D.s Many American students who are strong in math are lured into economics. The article below dates from 1998, but the expansion of economics departments has continued since then. </p>
<p>And what will define us? It seems more and more that our military is defining us. Maybe there are new advanced technologies but they are in the field of defense and not known to the general public yet.I remember in the 60's, 70's it was the defense industry which supported and caused much economic growth.Can anyone see that happening today? And it seems it should be considering we are at war .</p>
<p>I think the innovators and engineers are among us---just look at the enormous success of the FIRST Robotics program! I think the difference is that world-wide, we're seeing the surge of other countries encouraging/allowing/etc. their own innovators and engineers. We simply don't have a lock on public education anymore!</p>
<p>My S who graduated with a BAS from engineering at PENN has yet to find a job in his area of expertise. He wants to be a project manager and has many skills. Now has to take classes at Wharton because the bent for project managers is in finance and management. There you go....back to business once again and less on engineering per se.</p>
<p>As the parent of a math-lover, I've tried to follow discussions on possible careers for mathematicians. I read in one forum that there are practically no jobs for math Ph.D.s to be had, unless some profs retire or die.
I just wanted to point out that the dearth of American students going into advanced studies in science and math has more to do with perceived career opportunities than with poor preparation. This is why there is such a preponderance of foreign students in math/science Ph.D. programs. And the fact that so many of them are employed as TAs suggests that math and science courses are very popular at the undergraduate level. Most of the students in my S's math classes are economics majors, by the way.</p>
<p>You don't need a math Ph.D. to work on Wall Street and therefore most math undergraduates don't go on to advanced degrees. In fact, I know several history Ph.D.s who got jobs in investment banking. One was actually ABD and never finished his Ph.D. Last I heard of him, he was vice-president at a major bank.</p>
<p>A financial institution has a lot of businesses. Quantitative trading involving program trades using quantitative methods do need Math PhDs to develop the trading strategies. Math PhDs are also involved in securitizing assets or creating different kinds of financial instruments. They could also be involved in creating hedging strategies, hedges, swaps, collars etc.</p>
<p>Then there is a plethora of different businesses that investment banks are in, most of which do not require Math Phds.</p>
<p>Quantitative trading involving program trades using quantitative methods do need Math PhDs to develop the trading strategies. Math PhDs are also involved in securitizing assets or creating different kinds of financial instruments.</p>
<p>Actually, many physics and astrosphysics Ph.D.'s would have better skills for doing this sort of thing than many math Ph.D.'s. That's because physics and astrophysics involve higher math which is often far more computationally intensive than a math Ph.D. might encounter. And that sort of thing is more transferrable to the securities business than certain kinds of highly theoretical math (which may involve very little in the way of actual numbers.)</p>
<p>That's why the so-called "quant jocks" on Wall Street are sometimes called "Rocket Scientists."</p>
<p>But other high-powered jobs go to other people with strong analytical skills and communications skills (those who can analyze complex situations involving many factors which may not be quantifiable, and are able to write and speak coherently and persuasively about their work.) For those kinds of jobs, humanities Ph.D's may find a very comfortable fit.</p>
<p>There are more foreign students doing science Phds. They have a much higher work ethic. My foreign-born academic friends (now US citizens) have said this for years. </p>
<p>How many go on to get citizenship? 50%? 75%? If they don't stay, where do they go? Who else provides the funding that American universities provide? Do you think the numbers are likely to return--once the US sorts out it's visa conundrums? Presuming the anti-americanism softens in the next decade... </p>
<p>What a terrific pool of immigrants they have been.</p>
<p>Interesting comment about economics, Marite. My S switched out of his 20 student English Lit seminar after six weeks and switched into a 500 student economics class--which he LOVES. Suddenly he's found a Maths subject that interests him and it shows in his scores. </p>
<p>Is the tendancy to science/engineering genetic, or family patterned? Both sides of our family have high math ability but there are no doctors or scientists. My brother is a software engineer of sorts, but most of the math talent in the family was drawn to business (and two to architecture) including one Fortune 500 CEO and one Fortune 500 Pres.</p>
<p>I'm not sure why my high-maths boys turned away from engineering but they did it at a very young age. While they were always interested in building things, (can we say trunks and trunks of legos?), neither boy had a tendancy to take things apart. And, from a very young age, both were inclined to ponder history and politics over science. </p>
<p>Unlike their brilliant friend who, as an eight year old, approached me in my kitchen and asked, "Mrs X? Tell me everything you know about Black Holes."</p>
<p>Very short conversation! Mostly stammering, in fact, as in, "Honey! Mikey has a question for you!" :) Along with alternative country music, Honey keeps up with the latest in astrophysics. (That boy is doing astrophysics at UChicago last I heard).</p>
<p>Homeschoolmom:
I think you must be right. The kind of math my S likes is more likely to involve letters than numbers. When he makes an error, it invariably involves computation.</p>
<p>Cheers:
My siblings and I are evenly divided between the math-lovers and the math-phobics. I belong to the second category. My H has a Ph.D. in physics--which he has not used in 30 years. Our kids are similarly ranged on either side of the humanities/science divide; it's like CP Snow's two cultures in our home.
Funny about the trunks and trunks of Legos. I'm looking to donate the boxes and boxes of K'Nex my S accumulated over the years. We already gave away the Legos because it's easier to find educational uses for them. K'Nex are quite similar in concept, but there are not as much materials developed to make use of them for educational purposes.
I'm glad your S found a class he really enjoys. It just proves that it's not the size of the class that matters the most, it's the content of the course.</p>
<p>My friend is math purist, with degree from top school (don't want to say more), and teaches in this area. All the prof.s my S encountered at CC had great pedigrees.
Marite,
I do wonder about future work, not that S cares about my opinion. He's gone from comp sci to eco to physics to bio in past 2 years. He justs wants research, and thinks he can live on nothing. After being a TA for years, I suspect he'll wise up.</p>
<p>Marite, an after school program at a school, church or YMCA would probably love to have the K'Nex. I'm holding on to our Legos in the hope that SOME day I might have grandchildren.</p>