<p><em>fire spouts from tha card but doesn't burn the Prince of Art's hand. The fire spreads all over the thread incinerating it!</em></p>
<p>The Nazis were NOT atheists. Anyone trying to claim otherwise is either deluding or deluded.</p>
<p>Just one quote as an example, that site has plenty more:</p>
<p>"The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today."</p>
<p>Cwatson..I memorize a lot of the Kor'an and i also have read it in it's entirety numerous times, i am sorry i have no idea what you are talking about. Can you please tell me where in Kor'an it says that Muslims have to kill?</p>
<p>WatchMeShine, no, I suppose in our limited human understanding, we can't be sure beyond every doubt that anything is correct. However, I am a Christian because there is some very very very compelling evidence that Christianity is true. This is not the "burning in my bosom" feeling that other people may give you as evidence that they are correct, but hard fact that, while they don't prove Christianity is true, certain provide a solid foundation for believing it is. If you would like to hear exactly what my proof is, go ahead and PM me.</p>
<p>Please, elaborate on what this compelling evidence is.</p>
<p>Why can't you post your compelling evidence here?</p>
<p>She believes it, and that's proof enough :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
fight and slay the pagans <a href="or%20infidels%20or%20unbelievers">b</a>** wherever you find them?
- Surah 9:5
[/quote]
</p>
<p><a href="http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp</a>
In bold is the website's addition to the quote.</p>
<p>The website continues to tell us what to read literally, and what not to. It also tries to prove the quote isn't literal because Mulsims have allowed Christians to exist in their society, which has nothing to do if it says it or not in the Quran. (and then becomes an issue of people believing to choose bits and pieces of the religion)</p>
<p>It could be taken metaphorically (^^remember above) as to do anything to convert people to Islam, but before that quote it already says to try and convert them...</p>
<p>Link, won't load...i'll try tomorrow. And you are misinterpreting the ayat..I'll give you the info later...(too late)</p>
<p>Here we go:
There was a time when the Makkans (The Makkans were pagans at this time) were fighting the Muslims when Prophet Muhammed pbuh was alive. Then the Muslims stopped fighting in Makkah because one of the four sacred muslim months arrived (There are four months from the Arab calendar in which Muslims are forbidden from fighting in Makkah). Then, the prophet pbuh sent two muslims to go check on the Makkan caravans to see what they were doing and to see what was up. The two companions of the Prophet pbuh then came across a couple other Makkans and both groups started to fight. During the skirmish, one of the muslims slayed a Makkan and Allah be came angry. He then sent this ayat down to the Prophet pbuh to tell him that "But when the treaties (the months in which it is forbidden to fight) are past, then fight them and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, (It says wherever because the Muslims would now be allowed to fight in Makkah as well), and sieze them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."</p>
<p>This was sent down after the Muslims were forced out of Makkah by the Pagans and the Muslims were migrating to Madinah. The Makkans kept fighting and sent people to Madinah to scare the Muslims, and they were in a War. Too fully understand this ayat, there are many ayats around it that explain what happened, and what Allah is saying.</p>
<p>In contrast to Islam being a violent religion, here are a few verses from the top of my head against fighting.</p>
<p>surah 2:190: This ayat explains how Allah is telling the Muslims that they are never allowed to fight unless the enemy fights first.</p>
<p>surah 2:191: Also says never to fight unless Enemy starts fighting first, then you are alowed to fight back and "slay" them.</p>
<p>surah 2:194: It also in the Kor'an has laws of equality in war. In Islam we are supposed to use the same weapons as our enemies. For examples, if the enemy has swords and we have guns, it is forbidden for a muslim to use the gun, they have to use a sword to fight. Or if Muslims have tanks and the oppisition doesnt have anything equal, then we are not allowed to use those tanks in war.</p>
<p>I really hope that explained what you needed to know about that ayat. There are books and books written about the entire Koran and the meaning of specific ayats, so if you ever need an explanation of anything then just holler at me.</p>
<p>Dictionary: lol i know a lot of the people here won't understand my terminology</p>
<p>Prophet: Refers to Muhammed pbuh
pbuh: Peace Be Upon Him
ayat: verse in the Koran
surah: Chapter of the Koran
Makkah: City where Muhammed was raised
Madina: City where the Muslims were forced to migrate to</p>
<p>I want to believe what you are saying, but the command is still clear to slay the pagans. Are you saying that it is only allowed in the case of the Makkans? That would constitute a double standard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And if they don't, slay them?</p>
<p>Other evidence that the Quran promotes peace only proves that either Allah is indecisive or the rediculous possibility that it was written by men.</p>
<p>do u guys actually know what u're talking about. dude, my intellectual level is so high that it feels like i'm talking with bunch of first-graders. </p>
<p>first of all, none of u realize that muslims are not all arabs. they consist of myriads of different ethnicities that vary tremendously: senegalese, western chinese, filipino, french, etc. even the muslims in iraq region are not fully arabs. arabs themselves came from ethiopia and don't even belong to indo-european language family. so, all ur statement assuming that all these different peoples adherring to islam have similar values, is quite remarkably wrong. these people rarely react similarily to a message from the quran; even in the middle-east.</p>
<p>second, i'm actually laughing at how uneducated some of ur posts are. could u please go learn some history before ranting on a few passages? give me the ENTIRE context and i will furthur my argument. but until u realize ur faults i will not proceed further. my knowledge is too advanced for some of u folks.</p>
<p>Sauronvoldemort, let me just say that the fear of nothingness is a horrible reason to join a religion. Using such as the basis for faith is hardly faith ar all, but a disparate attempt to escape from the possible reality of life (notice I say possible). Most agnostics don't choose their view because its fun or satisfying. Rather, they choose it because their intellect or their experiences lead them to doubt the existence of a supreme being, logically or otherwise. Christianity is partly so popular because its a "nice" religion. It speaks of a beautiful eternal paradise, gives comfort to thousands in times of crisis, and helps people not feel alone. That doesn't mean that the religion is right, but its a "nicer" option than atheism or agnosticism, so its no surprise why so few have actually "taken the plunge." </p>
<pre><code> Also, I must say that its quite pretentious and haughty to constantly talk about how high your intellectual level is. You assume that you know more about history and religion than most people here, but by no means do you know everything and I'm sure there is someone here who knows more than you do. I suggest that you shrink your head a bit before you continue, or your arguments will only get buried beneath your own arrogance.
And for another thing, you spoke of German atrocities driven by atheism. That was hardly the cause. Many of them may have been atheists (although I know quite a few were supposedly Christian, Hitler included) but, unlike religion, atheism does not demand a moral basis. Any actions could not be driven by atheism because atheism demands NOTHING because its not a religion in the technical sense. It merely describes a lack of belief in a supreme being, often accompanied by a strong support of science. German atrocities driven by WWII had a multitude of causes that no one can accurately pinpoint. Part of it may have been nationalism, part of it the need to blame those unable to defend themselves, and it may have been due to old prejudices and hatred. It is presumptuous to blame it all on atheism, which, let me reiterate, isn't even a belief system!
Additionally, science may have created the hydrogen bomb, but that doesn't make it violent. Science has done many good things for people, lest we forget that our long lifespans are due to advancements in medicine, and our computers (which you typed on) came from science. Science has given us the TV, the telephone, airplanes, automobiles, modern housing, renewable sources of energy, fusion (not just fission!), skyscrapers, etc, etc. In fact, practically everything you wear and use can be attributed to science (unless you happen to make all your own clothes and constructed this computer yourself out of leaves and metal ores). I think science has done more beneficial things than it has done destructive or detrimental things. Besides, science, just like religion, can easily be corrupted in the wrong hands.
And as a final note let me mention this: I'll acknowledge my own faults (and I realize that I am not perfect) when you get off your high horse, and recognize your own. None of us are perfect, all knowing beings, and it is impossible to be either. Don't look down at us for not knowing everything, because I am quite sure I know things that you don't, and yet I don't bash you. Respect that all of us are very intelligent and that this is not a chance to put others down and consider yourself superior because of your viewpoint or your supposedly immaculate arguments. I'd rather keep this civilized.
</code></pre>
<p>passive acceptance of inferiority!!!!! how shameful ist that??</p>
<p>and what? "science has done many good things to people"? i hate to break it to u, bt science has destroyed mankind. science has destroyed the remaining glories, virtues and passion of the previous ages. science has led u to believe that we are all descendants of a worm. science is to blame for the apathetic state of perpetual numbness and unfeeling passion, for the obliteration of excellence. and yet, ignoring all the destruction that it has inflicted, science lies to us that we are heading toward a new future when we are about to be drowned by global warming and drowned in the blood of mechanized warfare that merely wipes away thousands without any emotion. and guess what? i hate to tell the truth, but science, however glorious its achievements might be, has had already run its course. physics is at a standstill. science is going to collapse, believe it or not. while christianity spanned centuries when it has seen great deeds (both good and evil) and has given men hope and freedom and passion and earning for etching a mark in history for the generations to come. the ancients held the same sipirt. they also respected the past, their tradition, honour, and strove to prove their virtues, to inspire men through their examples of greatness, through the arts... </p>
<p>science is the ultimate evil. it is destroying mankind. it has already done so.</p>
<p>no matter how reasonable science is...(and yes i know science's fantastic theories of evolution and physics...in fact i know a more accurate theory of evolution (that of spencer that can make ur hair curl....u do not know science))....i can find zillion reasons why science is a failure, why it describes NOTHING. i used to be a believer in science as well after my embers for God died. i used to believe that the universe can be explained by science, by physics, my mathematics...but i was wrong. i was humbled.</p>
<p>I will post my compelling evidence (once I get it properly organized) if I thought everyone would look at it with good intentions, but this forum seems to be a place where people come to tell other people their ideas are wrong. You can't change the mind of someone who is not willing, regardless of how many facts you give them, and furthermore, my evidence is "merely" compelling, not 100% definitive. If anyone is genuinely interested, be it that you wish to strengthen your faith, convert, or are just curious as to why Christians don't give in to moral relativism and agnosticism, feel free to PM me, and I'll get back to you in a few days.</p>
<p>diginetgod - </p>
<p>I would honestly save your breath rather than trying to reason with someone partially responsible for this abortion of a post:</p>
<p>Ever heard of proper spelling sauron? I mean someone so intellectually ahead of everyone here should be able to actually write out words such as "you".</p>
<p>Well, since science is so evil, I guess you shouldn't get to take vaccines or medicines right? It's just evil sciences trick on us!!! Seriously, there is nothing intelligent in your posts. Get off your unearned high horse.</p>
<p>If anyone takes this person seriously, I suggest you rethink if college should actually be in your plans.</p>
<p>And trellily, I can't wait to hear your amazing evidence that you claim really won't make anyone but believers believe! Thanks!</p>
<p>3:12 Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place. ----Koran, The Family Of 'Imran.</p>
<p>3:85 And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. </p>
<p>17:17 How many generations have We destroyed since Noah! And Allah sufficeth as Knower and Beholder of the sins of His slaves. </p>
<p>3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. </p>
<p>This could go on for days Sheed. Don't get the idea that I hate Islam more than any other religion though. In general, Islam is just as bad as Christianity and Judaism.</p>
<p>C-watson: The MAkaans were at war with the Muslims. A WAR!!!!! So in a war you naturally fight and kill people right? However, in Islam you are not allowed to kill anyone in the holy city of MAkkah during 4 sacred moths. During one of those months, a man killed someone during a war. Allah sent down the message to not kill, until after the moth was over, then the muslims can go to Makkah and kill the pagans they were in a war with. Do you get it now? And then Allah says if a pagan wants to convert then don't kill them. They were in a war if ihave to stress that a million times.</p>
<p>Voldemort...SHUT UP YOUR STUPID</p>
<p>Huey Freeman- I didn't understand the point you were trying to make. And if you for some reason want to make Islam a violent religion, you can try all you can but I will still always have the answers for why the Koran says was it does. Islam was always meant to be a very peaceful religion, and bringing a few ayats in the Koran that you don't know the context of doesnt change anything.</p>