Religious values

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>I didn't say this life doesn't matter, at least I hope I didn't word it that way. I said for most people with a religion they are living this life to get to what ever is next. I think you will find that in most cases, people believe that whatever is next is more important. </p>

<p>I agree that a lot of bad has come out religion, and like I've said before it's all man made so it's to be expected. But I disagree that it brings false hope. There you go claiming that one can't prove a religion is true, so how can you say it's false hope? If it can't be proven true, how can you even say it is false? ONce again I say look at mathematics. Most of it, if not all, has never been proven true. Yet we all believe in it. Does that make us all fools? Evidence is meaningless unless it proves to beyond a reasonable doubt. </p>

<p>So yes you have excellent points. But so does the rest of the dissenting world.</p>

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<p>see. I never say any bad thing about your belief (which I presume must be atheists) but you attack my belief and try to twist my words so it sounds that I am saying something that I don't. And now you're trying to shovel your belief to me. tsk tsk tsk. </p>

<p>I don't have any bad stigma against atheist but seeing that you don't respect my belief why should I respect yours? All I said believing in God is personal for me. I could've shared some spiritual experiences I encountered with God, but I choose not to since you seem so hostile. </p>

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If this God that you believe in exists, he truly is an ass. He gives us unlimited choices in religion(many of which send the non believers to hell). So God was like Christians, you guys and pork are fine, but Muslims, you eat it and it's evil. Don't drink alcohol either that is evil. By your definition, God is a complete jerk.

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<p>that's why I believe my faith is right and others are wrong. If you believe in atheism, you can't believe in others. So it's the same thing for me. Is it that hard to understand?</p>

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<p>Someone here has to see the irony of saying that religion is so great because logic is not needed, in fact according to Weskid, is frowned upon when it comes to religion.</p>

<p>What if I told you that I killed my mother for working on the Sabbath? I just followed my faith...</p>

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Ever notice how the 7 "days"

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Yes, taken in bits and pieces, metaphorically, yada yada yada. God is a metaphor for me, cwatson. I am God, sorry I didn't mention it in the big book. I had better things to do.</p>

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I'd like to see that study! I actually read of a double blind study where they proved that prayer had significant influence on healing those with illnesses.

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<p>Peer reviewed? I know I didnt provide a citation but I'm absolutely sure the one I mentioned is. Wrote about it for an exam.</p>

<p>Scientists prove things to the best of our human abilities using our humans senses. And they know this is all they can do, and work with it. What they don't do is fill that hole with a void because it enforces widespread ignorance.</p>

<p>As I said, smart people like those on this forum can try and find a good explination for anything, but if your whole ideals are based on unproven pretenses, then later proofs are just garbage.</p>

<p>Do yourselves a favor and live the life you know of, not the one that some ancient geniuses conjourned up (and probably don't believe themselves).</p>

<p>Scientists don't mix the metaphors with the literal when they are trying to prove something, so the Bible shouldn't either. Especially if it says its the literal word of God.</p>

<p>People adapt religion because of emptiness and hopelessness. It provides reassuring answers and general reassurement, but pervades ignorance in doing so.</p>

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<p>Wow, we've basically just filled this entire thread in 3 hours, nice debate.</p>

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<p>Pearlgate, "Atheists" isn't a religion/ Every atheist has their own belief. The only thing we have in common is a lack of belief in god.</p>

<p>I don't care if you respect my belief because I don't pretend to respect yours. You do realize that saying I win I win I win while playing a game doesn't actually mean you win right? You can have your faith, but why are you so mad that I question you on it? Why can't you answer why you don't believe any other religion is true besides you don't know anything about them, other than "I just do"?</p>

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What if I told you that I killed my mother for working on the Sabbath? I just followed my faith...

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<p>Well, of course, I am also a great lover of the law, which takes precidence here ;)</p>

<p>Anyway, let me revise: religion is not about logic. HOWEVER, harming people for religious reasons--or for any reasons (beyond self defense/defense of others)--is, IMO (and in, at least US society and law) not ok. But that doesn't mean that people who believe in God need to have a clear cut logical reason for doing so.</p>

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Why are you so offended pearlygate? I ask you why you believe in miracles and you come at me telling me to basically shut up. It's really simple. Something as important as religion should be able to be discussed with both sides being forced to give reasons other than "I just do".

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<p>I wouldn't be so offended if you don't label God as jerk or similar intonations. Use more polite word when you talk about religion please. </p>

<p>Also I believe in miracles even though it's illogical because a lot of reasons. One, from personal experience. Two, I don't want to limit myself to natural boundaries imposed by scientific rationale because some things happen beyond my rationale. Three, you believe because you believe? I know it's too simple but hey it works for me. Four, this may sound stupid but after learning a glimpse of the complexity of the universe, how everything works so perfect, I just can't imagine that everything happened just because of chance. There must be something out there that make this happen.</p>

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<p>Will you marry me cwatson(in a totally non-gay way of course)</p>

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<p>Well if you would like to get an answer (and in no way am I getting mad, I like this) just look at how you answered me. You are basically saying the same thing we are. You have no proof, I have no proof. I believe what I believe because of what I have learned and expierenced. You believe what you believe for the same reasons. Only you can decide if some god has shown itself to you. And you can NEVER prove it, to anyone. So I have answered you, to the best of both of our abilities.</p>

<p>Alright, I think of the 6 or so people who have posted on this server it's like 4 athiest and two religious. Who else would like to share?</p>

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<p>Ok, Pearlgate. The God in the OT is a villanous devil like person who goes around killing and pillaging. Read it once in awhile. He is a jerk. Jesus was a good guy, but that doesn't make him god. Even then, the god you describe is a jerk...he sets us up to fail. He has a plan for all of us, so he plans a Muslim person to be a Muslim, which according to Christianity, gets him sent to hell. That is quite jerkish.</p>

<p>2.Ok, tell me a miracle that happened to you. I'm really interested to hear what happened.</p>

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<li><p>Yeah, red is red because it is red! (nothing to do with rays or anything) Circular arguments aren't good man.</p></li>
<li><p>You are right. Everything doesn't occur by chance. Everything has a reaction and a reason for functioning(well not everything, the appendix anyone?) Thinking about it, there's a lot of things that really don't happen for a reason. AIDS? Earthquakes? Why do penguins have wings? So on and so on and so on.</p></li>
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<p>If you believe that God created everything, what created God? If God was always there, why is it impossible that the universe was always there?</p>

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I don't care if you respect my belief because I don't pretend to respect yours.

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<p>I see so since the beginning you really don't have any respect for other belief.

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You do realize that saying I win I win I win while playing a game doesn't actually mean you win right?

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<p>what game are we playing? did I just play a game of religious debate with you? if that's true, I am not interested. IMHO discussing religion over the web is a waste of time. </p>

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You can have your faith, but why are you so mad that I question you on it? Why can't you answer why you don't believe any other religion is true besides you don't know anything about them, other than "I just do"?

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<p>I never said anything about not completely knowing them. Believing a religion is quite simple for me (I don't know why)
On the other hand, what religions have you studied?</p>

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Why? Well I think it's childish. I don't believe in some being that can take form. I just believe in something that created the universe. That something happens to be God with a capital G. How else to I explain this?

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<p>Have you considered admitting that you aren't smart enough to know that answer, or we may never?</p>

<p>I do think almost everyone here who is religious (and you all seem skeptical at that) was born into it and taught it. Like saying please and thank you. I understand the mental block that ensues because of instilled values. I think this is why that, no matter how sensical those denouncing religion are, religion people are unable to concieve that they may be wrong. That mummy and daddy may have wronged you from birth.</p>

<p>Another thought I have, that probably doesn't concern people here, is that the level of intellect required to concieve nothingness and infinite is higher than the typical person's. I don't know how much people here have been exposed to the truly average man, but you will begin to recognize that not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, etc. You will see that you simply cannot trust a lot of people to make the logical judgements required for such proffessions. The same concept translates to religion, a lot of people may not be able to make the logical jump from the easy answers to the difficult or lack thereof. As abovesaid, those trying to make logic of it were probably born into it.</p>

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<p>Scientists take their own work with a grain of salt, and our religious country illustrates a scientists stance as a scientist's stance on a subject. We seem to neglect that a scientist has no stance on a subject, he simply believes what has been proven to him, and admits his ignorance to subjects he has no knowledge of.</p>

<p>I, myself, have always taken an underlying aspect (actually the entire basis) of science with a grain of salt (I think it an excuse for ignorance of causes), and I am beggining to contemplate ways to disprove this widespread assumption. A result of my theorizing would prove predestination and fate. If it is so, then scientists will be rediculed for their old beliefs and told religion was right in this one point. Religion is still wrong, it is a guess and will always be. If it's coincidentally right, then its just that - coincidence.</p>

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You do realize that saying I win I win I win while playing a game doesn't actually mean you win right?

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The point here he is trying to make is that of obstinancy - "just because you say so, dont make it mean so." The straw man arguments are unconvincing.</p>

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Will you marry me cwatson(in a totally non-gay way of course)

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We'd have to make that a civil union, as our genetic (I think) differences would make us hellbound and we minion's of the devil cannot have a holy union; marriage.</p>

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You do realize that saying I win I win I win while playing a game doesn't actually mean you win right?

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Here, unlike most places, people have to substantiate their claims. A difficult task when in favor of the unknown.</p>

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<p>Blink, you are comparing apples to oranges here man. What I have is a lack of belief. A lack of belief really requires no argument. I can provide reasons to why I don't believe, but it certainly isn't needed. You and others however, claim to believe. You lack good reasons as to why you believe(I mean come on, you can really do better than the I believe becaue I do type of argument). Amazing beliefs require amazing evidence.</p>

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<p>"Yeah, red is red because it is red! (nothing to do with rays or anything) Circular arguments aren't good man."</p>

<p>When talking about the unkown it's really all you have wouldn't you say?</p>

<p>"If you believe that God created everything, what created God? If God was always there, why is it impossible that the universe was always there?"</p>

<p>Well if you believe in physics, a decent physicist could lecture you on that.</p>

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<p>It's quite simple because you have been indoctrinated to believe it! Cwatson pretty much just said that so I won't get into that.</p>

<p>About respect, why would I respect an opinion based on no evidence? That would be a stupid thing for me to do. I'll gladly listen and discuss, but it is not a respectable argument(the I believe because I do argument).</p>

<p>What have I studied? Christianity-many sects, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology, Shinto, and soon to be many more. I'm spending senior year doing a year long project on many religions including those I just posted so by the end of next year I will know much more about them all.</p>

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<p>No, when talking about the unknown, you can say that you don't know. That is the answer. I don't know what happens when we die. That's the truth. But neither do you. In the same sense, I don't know if a monkey secretly runs the suns rays and shines them whenever he gets a banana. It's not possible to prove or disprove.</p>

<p>Can you lecture me on that? Because I would like to know the answer no one has ever answered(not even my friend who is a physics major, so maybe he's just stupid I don't know).</p>

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Ok, Pearlgate. The God in the OT is a villanous devil like person who goes around killing and pillaging. Read it once in awhile. He is a jerk. Jesus was a good guy, but that doesn't make him god. Even then, the god you describe is a jerk...he sets us up to fail. He has a plan for all of us, so he plans a Muslim person to be a Muslim, which according to Christianity, gets him sent to hell. That is quite jerkish.

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<p>uh no... I have read old testament. Which part of killing and pillaging are we talking about? If you're talking about the part where Joshua was sent to demolish ths Kanaanite and destroy everyone including women/children/animals whatsoever. I think the reason is already justified. Have you read about soddom and gommorah? how the same God chose to annihilate them just because they practice sin so much. The same is true for those kanaanites. Some archaeologist have found evidences that the kanaanites practiced human sacrifice, child sacrifice, sexual worship. Of course God did not choose to annihilate them on a whim because all these practices happened for a period of hundred of years. Though, I can't recall anything in the bible that said, God sent prophets to warn them, I think He would have done that because He did the same thing to niniveh. There are other reasons why these people are slaughtered and stuff but it'd take too long to explain and I'm not in the mood since it's 1 AM and I have finals coming. </p>

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<p>2.Ok, tell me a miracle that happened to you. I'm really interested to hear what happened.

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<p>this is personal and I don't feel comfortable sharing this in a public forum. Let's just say it has something to do with seeing some weird things happened in front of your eyes</p>

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  1. Yeah, red is red because it is red! (nothing to do with rays or anything) Circular arguments aren't good man.</p>

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<li>You are right. Everything doesn't occur by chance. Everything has a reaction and a reason for functioning(well not everything, the appendix anyone?) Thinking about it, there's a lot of things that really don't happen for a reason. AIDS? Earthquakes? Why do penguins have wings? So on and so on and so on.</li>
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<p>If you believe that God created everything, what created God? If God was always there, why is it impossible that the universe was always there?

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<p>I don't have answer to that, proponents of Big Bang mentioned that the universe was always there and it follows a cycle of contraction and expansion and we're the expansion stage. I admit I don't know what happened before God, but I just choose to believe that God is there since the beginning like you choose to believe that the Universe was there since the beginning. </p>

<p>Anyway it's been a good discussion, but I have to go.</p>

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<p>"Have you considered admitting that you aren't smart enough to know that answer, or we may never?"</p>

<p>I have never said that I am that smart. And I would have to say that it doesn't fall into the catagory of intellect as it does super-natural, or something along these lines. You had it right before cwatson, people believe in religion b/c they feel empty/afraid/curious of what is next. EVERYONE does. If you tell me you haven't thought about it then I am clearly done talking with you. </p>

<p>Huey and cwatson, you fail to realize I have provided you with sufficient reasons as to why I believe in whatever it is I believe in (also Huey, if you haven't realized already I dont have to prove anything to you, saying Amazing beliefs require amazing evidence is uncalled for and ignorant... this isn't a conversion forum). The first being I was born into some religion (introduced me to the concept that hey, maybe I'm not that high up on the food chain). I then thought about what I was taught. Does it make sense that something had to have created this beautiful world, that the human being, something so complex and interesting came out of nowhere?
Yes it does to me. I cannot imagine it just appearing out of nowhere, or being forever existant (which yes cwatson I cannot grasp, and I am confident that no one can). Lastly, expierences: every day further promotes my belief. People, animals, environment, etc etc all that makes life great relates to my second reason. </p>

<p>It's not about some angel or Sun god coming down and telling me while I'm sleeping that he/she/it exists and that I should worship it. It's simply my belief that somethign governs this universe, something greather than me. </p>

<p>If this is not clear I don't know what you are looking for. I don't know how to stress that religion to me isn't mandated by some person. It isn't written in some book. Does it help that other people have the same ideas as me in the past? Yes. Is it okay to associate myself to their religion even if I'm not a 100% believer? Yes. </p>

<p>Personal opinion and beliefs Huey, that's it man.</p>

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<p>Pearlygate, it's pretty obvious that you have read only parts of the OT if you even try to dispute my claim. I'm not going to go through countless bible quotes that portray God in the way I described, but they are there.</p>

<p>Here's one I like: All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) --God's rule, but I'm sure you've never ever said anything bad to your parents, right?</p>

<p>Let's see though. God has a plan. He knew that those people were going to do that when he designed the universe, yet he still destroyed them even though he knew they were going to do it from the beginning? Totally makes sense.</p>

<p>Ok let's go to the beautiful world thing. Which one are you talking about? The one where everyday there is constant disease spreading and genocide in Africa? The one where tsunamis kill thousands in Asia? How about the one where a kid shoots up a college and kills 32 other people? This is your evidence of a supreme being?</p>

<p>You have no personal opinion because you associate yourself as a Christian. You just like the other guy who says he's a reform jew with buddhist beliefs..You can definately make the case that you don't have to believe the bible or all the rules to be a Christian. But not believing Christ is God or the son of God? That is straight up non-Christian, as in, that is the only rule that really makes one a Christian. I completely agree with you that there could be a higher power, but to believe there is with no evidence is not a good decision. It's just basing it off of what you wish, which does not make something true.</p>

<p>Personal opinions, huh? So if my opinion is that we should all start breathing in a lot of CO2 because this will cause prolonged life, should my opinion be held true or even a possiblity? Should you respect that opinion?</p>