Religious values

Student Lounge College Life
101

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this is personal and I don't feel comfortable sharing this in a public forum. Let's just say it has something to do with seeing some weird things happened in front of your eyes

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<p>When I lose weight, stored acid in my fat cells causes me to see things entirely unexpectedly. (The most logical conclusion, it may well be other things causing visualizations). I stand by this because it offers the best, repeatable explination. If someone proves otherwise, then I will stand by that improved proof. If I feel my proof or their's is inadequate, I will acknowledge my ignorance on the subject.</p>

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Yes it does to me. I cannot imagine it just appearing out of nowhere, or being forever existant (which yes cwatson I cannot grasp, and I am confident that no one can).

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<p>Part of imaging nothingness is understanding that we cannot imagine everything. In order to be religious for the reason you state, you have to have conceded that nothingness is unimaginable and that everything is. And you speak of using your imagination as a reasoning device. Reasoning is based on the brain recognizing patterns shown to it through our five senses. It is what we are sure we are capable of.</p>

<p>That is why we cannot consider religious beliefs to be a course of logic, but rather one of our imagination. Our brain is a brilliant tool, but we should not make assumptions about the outside world without giving it the input necessary.</p>

<p>The imagination is a glorious collaboration of our past experiences and what we make of them. It should be used as such, not as a reasoning device. I think that this is why religous people consider their beliefs to be based on a logical evaluation.</p>

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You have no personal opinion because you associate yourself as a Christian. You just like the other guy who says he's a reform jew with buddhist beliefs

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<p>The ad hominems aren't necessary. We are challenging their beliefs, not them. The nitpicking of a religious text or one's uncertainty of sect or creed seems to be a result of the mind trying to flee from illogical answers, but cannot because of conscience and tradition (along with the uncomfortable nature of the unknown).</p>

<p>The agnostic approch (athiesm violates - the absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense unless the void can be filled a different, mutually exclusive, entity) is a win-win situation because, if the afterlife is a false conception we will have not wasted the only life on it. If an afterlife is real, then we will have excersized our right to free will to its fullest extent. </p>

<p>And after all, heaven and hell can't be run by gullable followers, someone's got to do the manigerial work. (Comic relief, not a snide comment and it doesn't deserve the obvious rebuttle.)</p>

102

<p>Wow, arguing with you is just...frustrating. Well I can't bear myself to repeat what I've been trying to tell you, as you fail to realize the no win situation on both sides yet still try and tell people they are wrong...</p>

<p>As for the beautiful world, um the one we live in. It's called Earth. It has water and some land, ya that one. You seem to focus on bad things, nothing to be expected from a pessimist (do you by any chance work for the media?). I guess it would be just horrible if I gave you some good situations on this crappy Earth. </p>

<p>You would like us all to breath CO2? Fine I respect that. It's your opinion and you are entitled to that. Hell, Oxygen is the number one killer on this planet, why not? Talk about apples and oranges.</p>

103

<p>Um red is red because we decided to call it red. Cars are cars because we decided to call them cars. Blue is blue because we decided to call it blue. Get it? They're just names. We can collectively decide to call a computer a car and that would make it true.</p>

104

<p>my mom had us get classes from jehovah's witness when we were younger. no going to church, just simply reading the bible or at least a picture book version of the bible for kids. then we stopped getting JW classes and my mom had us taking catholicism on Saturday. that occurred for a couple of years until then we moved and I stopped going altogether. then we somehow started getting classes from JW again. now just from experiencing both religions i can't really say i'm much of a follower either but i am always intrigued by different religions and i am always curious to hear what they believe just from the differences I already saw in just these 2 religions which are still Christian. at least in my experience i liked jehovah's witness more than catholicism (even though I spent more than with the latter) simply because I like their interpretation of the bible better. i couldn't stand the hypocrisy in the catholic church. to many things that the bible says that they don't follow and yet the religion is supposed to be based on the bible. every time i sit down with my friend who gives us classes we have a discussion on some topic in the bible and it's purely educational for me because every thing he says he backs up with quotes from the bible. and occasionally i'll bring in any other kind of knowledge i have of other religions and we'll discuss that too.</p>

105

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You have no personal opinion because you associate yourself as a Christian. You just like the other guy who says he's a reform jew with buddhist beliefs

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<p>I have heavily considered religion throughout different stages in my lifetime. I did so when I was young, but dismissed the prayers in leui of the cathedral's striking beauty and splendid architecture. I did so in a depressed state, again susceptable to anything that offered answers. Rational could not allow it through the door.</p>

<p>Knowing the timeframe of the path of humanity, I have considered that religion is an offering of answers in the vernacular. That it may have been determined as true by means previously, and logically, determined but decided unsuitable for the masses. Its a conspiracy theory, but still possible nonetheless. If our reason gravitates increasingly towards religious teachings, I'll revisit the philosophy but not until evidence can substantiate it. Regardless, even if religion is the culmation of a past, hidden science, then it is still wrong. It would remain a euphamism for the truth and still make it unacceptable to blindly follow.</p>

<p>John says the world is getting hotter because of the heat we make when burning fuel. The world is getting hotter. We are burning fuel, which does create heat, but coincidence does not imply causation. If John would present the other possibilities, and explain why burning fuel is the most significant contributer to the heat then I'll believe him. When Jane presents evidence and a logic conclusion based on it that opposes John's theory, I shall believe Jane.</p>

<p>I have conceded to one belief - that life is good, and fulfilling our desires is good as well. I live my life based on this belief because it otherwise seems worthless. I choose not to consider the alternate (well, I try to), but will not ever deny its possibility.</p>

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Wow, arguing with you is just...frustrating. Well I can't bear myself to repeat what I've been trying to tell you, as you fail to realize the no win situation on both sides yet still try and tell people they are wrong...

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<p>I have never once said you are wrong nor have I once said I am right. I ally with the senses I was born with and can consistently predict happenings. Your alligience to an invisible agents is the culmation of your imagination, which is a poor predictor of happenings.</p>

<p>I understand your frustration because I am questioning a belief to which you ally yourself. The point I was trying to make above is why my arguments seem unreasonable to you, and your's me. There are many fallacies whose(what is the third object possesive!!!) errors I can logically understand, but my subconsciences refuses to. I have focused a lot of my mental efforts to gain better control of my subconscience and introduce those concepts of nothingness and infinite than my conscience bends to grasp, but manages to do so.</p>

106

<p>"In order to be religious for the reason you state, you have to have conceded that nothingness is unimaginable and that everything is."</p>

<p>No I clearly stated that I cannot immagine either one of those circumstances (existanct or nonexistant). It is far too complex for me, and I know nothing about it. Perhaps the answers can be obtained later on? I will never know in this life time (if there are multiple ones that is).</p>

<p>"The imagination is a glorious collaboration of our past experiences and what we make of them. It should be used as such, not as a reasoning device."</p>

<p>But you just stated logic is from our senses. So by definition, logic is from past experiences, because one can never be stuck in the same present (time never stops, at the rates on Earth ). So why can logic be used to form opinions but not immagination? It seems to me that immagination is taking logic and predicting...you know, as in the "what if" statements that we learn by?</p>

107

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4. You are right. Everything doesn't occur by chance. Everything has a reaction and a reason for functioning(well not everything, the appendix anyone?) Thinking about it, there's a lot of things that really don't happen for a reason. AIDS? Earthquakes? Why do penguins have wings? So on and so on and so on.

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I wouldn't say that they don't happen without reason. I wouldn't even go as far as saying that things that exist don't have a purpose or function. There are probably a lot of things that man does not know the causes of. We know a lot of things that do exist, but man constantly strives to look for explanations to the unknown. Some of the things man didn't know 2000 years ago, we know today. Just because weird things occurred back then that weren't explainable, it doesn't mean it happened without reason.</p>

108

<p>Me, I'm agnostic. I don't believe in the absoluteness of the Bible but I don't claim to know that there is no God either. I think this is the most scientific stance as it is admitting that you have no clue.</p>

109

<p>Which is why religion was formed in the first place. To provide answers to things we didn't know as a society. Obviously we don't know everything, but we no longer believe that Zeus creates lightning or that rain is "God crying"(just something I used to hear as a child). It's called advancing as a society, evolving, gaining knowledge. It's how civilization has advanced, and one more thing that will eventually go away is the myth that is organized religion.</p>

<p>As for Blink, logic and imagination? I can imagine my head exploding and then reforming into a pink elephant. It's not based on anything that's happened or will happen, it's not a prediction. It's just one of the crazy things that we can do with our minds...</p>

110

<p>HueyFreeman- Many Christians (Catholics, at least) believe that many stories in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, are not literal. They are meant teach points and morals. Also, you are correct, the world today is not perfect. As a Catholic, my personal beliefs concerning this, is that God did in fact create a perfect universe, which was diluted by the original sin. </p>

<p>I'm really not trying to shove my religion down your throat, I just thought I would explain my views (and possibly Pearlygate's?). Beliefs are personal, and in no way am I meaning to insult/offend anyone!:)</p>

111

<p>Yes I know that Catholics believe that. But God created original sin in his plan of the universe so god knew that this would happen therefore not creating a perfect universe. Comments?</p>

<p>I just want to add Blink that there are many beautiful things in this world, filled with many ugly things as well. I don't know where you live, but I consider cities some of the most beautiful places in the world, but be in the wrong place at the wrong time and you can see horrors. For all the great in this world, there is a lot of bad as well. You made it like the world was this peachy clean great place, which it isn't at all. It isn't perfect.</p>

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<p>Yes, but it was not God who chose that. He wanted to give people freedom.</p>

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<p>Does God know everything? If he does, then he knows what "choice" people will make before they make it. That's an illusion of choice, not actual choice.</p>

114

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As for the beautiful world, um the one we live in. It's called Earth. It has water and some land, ya that one. You seem to focus on bad things, nothing to be expected from a pessimist (do you by any chance work for the media?). I guess it would be just horrible if I gave you some good situations on this crappy Earth.

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<p>The point Huey is trying to make is the rarity of those events. Religous proponents are similar to the media in the opposite regard. The media informs us of uncommon evils, and religious proponents inform us of inexplicable goods. What the religious components cannot grasp is that ignorance of causes now (or forever) is okay. Human progression is underlined by the curiosity to use our abilities (senses + reason) to explain causes. </p>

<p>Consider the static nature of a world that is entirely religious. Answers would not be sought, and nor would ease and comfortability of our current lies. (The Amish recognized that scientific advancement can occur only in disbelief or ignorance of religion, and therefore should be disregarded.)</p>

115

<p>I have to disagree. If the weatherman is able to predict/know what the weather will be like, does that mean he controls the weather? Is the weather man the one that controls how warm it will be, or if there will be rain?
(My own beliefs here)-God knows what will happen, and God allows us to make the choices. Gid knows what choices we will make, and God allows us to make them. Just because he knows the outcome, that doesn't mean he controls it.</p>

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<p>If God knows what will happen, there is no other option. This is why prayer makes no sense. You are asking God to change his plan, which would mean that he would have to change his plan, which would make him fallable.</p>

<p>The weatherman didn't create the weather to being with. You think that god created the human, and knows what they will do. There is no choice. There is only one way, and it is god's way.</p>

117

<p>Huey, I think you are assuming most believers believe in fate. What about free will? Is it not possible a god out there could have created us with the ability to freely make our own choices? I mean what point is there in creating things that you already know what is going to happen to. If that were also the case, why would God not create everyone and everything to be 'good.' I think an argument for this, and I'll admit this comes from Descartes, is that we were created with the ability make our own choices so that the good we do is rewarded and the bad we do is punished.</p>

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<p>To you, prayer may not make sense, but to others it does. When people pray, they normally are not only asking for things to change. God likes it when we pray. Prayer is not a way to get God to change is plan.</p>

<p>We do have choice. God just knows what choices we will make. He is not making the choices for us, but he just knows what we will choose.</p>

119

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But you just stated logic is from our senses. So by definition, logic is from past experiences, because one can never be stuck in the same present (time never stops, at the rates on Earth ). So why can logic be used to form opinions but not immagination? It seems to me that immagination is taking logic and predicting...you know, as in the "what if" statements that we learn by?

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<p>Logic is a predicting force. Proper predictions validate the conclusion's that logic makes. Imagination is a level of logic that has conceded to too many uncertainties to make a conclusion. It is sometimes right, but often wrong.</p>

<p>I imagine I will die tonight but rolling off my bed and puncturing my temple. It is a logical conclusion but I have conceded that:
1) I will roll in bed a lot (not ussual of me)
2) I will fall off
3) I will be oriented in a manner to puncture my temple
4) It will actually kill me</p>

<p>This is a logical pattern of the perfectly possible events that could lead to such an unfortunate death. But I will not stop there. It is a possibility, and not the likely possibility.</p>

<p>The abovesaid case follows a logical path, free of fallacies. The same cannot be said for the Bible, but let us assume it presents a logical path. Even if it does present a good answer (the brain does a poor job of making such long chains of logic without confirming along the way) for the unknown, it is still merely a possibility. And, based on its discrepencies, an unlikely possibility.</p>

<p>I beg people to not bring issues of predestination or fate into this discussion. I can make a scientific offering for fate and predestination that has NOTHING to do with the supernatural.
Let us first establish the logical basis for confidence in the unknown.</p>

<p>It would be like arguing if the blaster or light saber is a superior weapon. Even if the evaluation is done so scientifically, we would have had to concede their existence. Conceding to the alternate nature of science fiction (or an allegory) is fine if what we gather from it is pertinent to the real world. Conceding to religion and having it govern your underlying beliefs is basing thought on false pretense.</p>

<p>A parellel: Capurnicus' celestial observations and the result of those observations (looping orbits) are perfect assuming you have conceded that the universe is geocentric.
Likewise, your religious explainations are perfect assuming you have conceded to the supernatural.</p>

<p>In contrast, science concedes that our critical analysis of the evidence gotten by our senses is the best way to seeking universal truthes.</p>

<p>** Again, please drop the fate/predestination/predetermination debate before we can establish why one should concede to the supernatural instead of using his own senses. **</p>

120

<p>Well, free will doesn't exist in the sense that most people think with or without God. No one really has free will. For example, I can hold in my pee for a long time, but eventually, it'll come out when I sleep.</p>

<p>I don't know BP, does God have a plan for all of us? Is there a reason for everything? If the answer is no, then I agree with your argument. It's just common sense to see that good is rewarded and bad is punished, but only after we as a society establish what is good and bad(for example, the laws of Christianity are not the laws of the United States).</p>