<p>Kelsey, you don't get it. That's not a choice. You have an illusion of choice, but according to you, God knows your choice. That means that no matter what, you will pick only one choice, there is no other option because if you choose another path you will prove god wrong.</p>
<p>What type of prayer does not ask for god to follow your own plan for your life? Even praying for the health of your mother and father can go against god's plan.</p>
<p>It is a choice. We as humans don't know God's plan for us, and therefore, we can choose whatever we want. God just knows already. Yes, no matter what we will make one choice, but it is our choice. If I had the choice of buying a new dog or cat, and I choose to buy a dog, it would be my choice. The fact that God knows what I will choose doesn't make it not my choice.</p>
<p>There are many, many types of prayer. We can thank God in prayer, we can get to know God in prayer, grow closer to Him, and you will find that many people just talk to God as they would a regular human.</p>
<p>It is not a choice if it is planned out. What is missed from that? If something is planned ahead of time, you do not have a choice..it is an illusion. As in something that appears like a choice, but since it is already planned, is not one. The fact that God PLANNED it does mean that it is not a choice. One choice that can be made is not a choice, ugh!</p>
<p>Ok, you are right somewhat. You can thank god. But let's take the VT example. What exactly are people praying for, for the ones that died already? Their souls? Well God knew this event was going to happen and knows where their souls are going, so that seems useless.</p>
<p>As for you're getting to know god argument, did you ever ponder the thought that you were really just talking to yourself?</p>
<p>No, I don't believe that I am "just talking to myself".</p>
<p>As for the whole choice thing, I see your point, but I think it is fair to say we will never agree.</p>
<p><a href="for%20example,%20the%20laws%20of%20Christianity%20are%20not%20the%20laws%20of%20the%20United%20States">quote</a>.
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<p>I would have to refute this claim. We are a Christian nation and our laws are therefore based on Christian morality. However, some laws must disagree with the Bible to ensure a overall Christian morality for the logical man will rarely accept all points of Christian morality.</p>
<p>Huey and Kelsey, consider the pointlessness of your argument. Atleast one of you is arguing based on an unestablished pretense. We cannot go to the calculus before we finish the algebra.</p>
<p>Read my previous post alluding to star wars and you'll understand the point.</p>
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I would have to refute this claim. We are a Christian nation and our laws are therefore based on Christian morality.
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<p>And I would have to refute this bit of fallacy. We are a nation where the majority of the population identifies themselves as Christian. That DOES NOT mean that we are a Christian nation. Our founding documents were formulated so that our government would be free from religious persuasion and that the minority voice would always be heard. </p>
<p>I am disgusted when legislation is proposed that is clearly religious in nature and has no basis in what laws are for (specifically, for the good of society and to respect the rights of its citizens). For example, school prayer in public schools. Absolutely ludicrous. Public schools are there for educating the children of this nation. They are not for "instilling morality" or whatever drivel proponents of school prayer like to say is the justification for such a thing. Its pure crap - people who want this want it because they want their religion integrated into public life as much as possible. And the 10 commandments in a public court. I about cried when I heard people were up in arms to have them put back. I have little doubt that people would have strongly protested putting a copy of the Koran or Bhagavad Gita on display. Unbelievable hypocrisy and discrimination is the basis of these things and I cannot believe how many people go along with them.</p>
<p>I also have to point out that there is no such thing as "Christian morality". Morality is morality - it is objective and not even an all-powerful being can change moral principles. Murder is wrong even if god says otherwise. You can try to argue against this all you want, but even great Christian theologians have accepted this as fact and the arguments for it are pretty solid. What people call "Christian morality" as it relates to the law are actually extremely biased religious views.</p>
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However, some laws must disagree with the Bible to ensure a overall Christian morality for the logical man will rarely accept all points of Christian morality.
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<p>Would you please explain what this means to me? I honestly have no idea what you're saying here.</p>
<p>The laws are not directly gotten from the Bible as what I said would imply. I meant moreso to say that the spirit of our laws has a lot to do with teachings in the OT and NT.</p>
<p>I am saying that, in order for us to keep Christian-based laws, we must allow some deviation from laws directly gotten from the Bible. This does have a conspiracy theory aspect, but I think it quite possible.</p>
<p>Most men are incapable of seperating unfounded beliefs and founded beliefs. If a man can do so, then he will ussually have contradicting beliefs and nobody knows what way he'll use those. Alright that was confusing, I'll reword later this morning.</p>
<p>haha. Icarus flying into the sun!! well, i'm Zeus abducting Europa.</p>
<p>i'm actually critical of "freedom of religion," cuz people are too serious about it. it's like worse than the past combined system of religion and state. at least then u could express ur religion and die gloriously on a stake.</p>
<p>cwatson - if you are part of the Christian nation then I think Sam Harris has a letter for you.</p>
<p>I've been meaning to read that.</p>
<p>Seems like christian fundamentalists are the ones calling for the murder of all so-called "infidels."</p>
<p>I don't know about you, but some christians are the biggest morally bankrupt lowlife scum I've ever seen in my life. Not to mention religious people are very intolerant.</p>
<p>And no, we are NOT a christian nation. The founding fathers created this nation to be free from religious persecution of any kind.</p>
<p>can we get back to the Original topic? I wanted to take a poll on CC to see how many of you are religious?</p>
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Not to me smurfgirl. Don't assume that Atheists suddenly believe in god in times of sadness...Seriously what an ignorant thing to say.
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<p>Funny how atheists like you, demand to be treated respectfully for their beliefs, and yet you insult those who believe in God by blatantly trashing the Bible. Maybe you should reread your post before you start calling me ignorant. I don't care if you worship a shoe, don't trash something that means a lot to someone because you don't agree with what it says.</p>
<p>Two of my friends are atheists and they're extremely respectful of my religious views as I am of their non-religous views. I'm just happy to know that not all atheists are hostile towards believers, like you.</p>
<p>what i don't understand is people trying to rationalize God. how pathetic can u get?? God is something above human, above logic... so any atheist out there, don't consider the religious people as backward and dumb. we're as smart as u, and perhaps smarter</p>
<p>God of christianity is irrational. there are many instances in the bible when his actions seem to have no logic. for example why did God bless jacob who fooled his father isaac and cursed esau?</p>
<p>i see something wrong with my above post... i meant those who rationalize God as atheists for every religion is irrational since they are not ground on evidence that scientists are so horny about..sorry if i'm cruel to science, and favourable toward religion, it's just that those scientists that think they know everything ****es me off.</p>
<p>The only think I hate is when people say "oh if something bad was happening, you would start to pray." Here's my view: 1. when things are going bad and people feel like they have no where else to turn to, their belief in God grows. like in the holocaust, some people began to believe in God even more. 2. sometimes when things go bad and theres no one else to turn, people stop believing in God because they believe God has failed them. </p>
<p>it all depends on the person.</p>
<p>I like to describe myself as agnostic by the way. I was raised catholic. There's just things I question both scientifically and of divine nature that I don't really stick to any one set of beliefs. I just kinda don't "believe in anything" or, lol, as agnostic is defined, "no knowledge." Live and let live.</p>
<p>Now, I do love learning about different religions and I find many people hypocrites when they say they're a certain religion...it's quite interesting actually. </p>
<p>Now, can we all just get along? LOL I won't preach to you if you won't preach to me, although I am up for some debate (but not about "respect"...it should be a "respectful debate" lol </p>
<p>Uh: comment. No, America is NOT a Christian nation (as future NYU said: congrats by they way on NYU I'm going to apply there when my time comes lol) I do, however, believe a lot of people "lowlife scum" as you like to call; not only extreme Christians, but athiests, agnostics, jews, muslims, etc etc...all people who are close-minded.</p>
<p>I'm very open minded, but belive me, the only person that will sway what I believe in is me.</p>
<p>I am a little late entering this debate, but as for the question the OP was asking, I am an agnostic-atheist if that makes any sense. </p>
<p>One thing that I have been curious about is why God is about the only thing I can think of that is exempt from needing proof. If I say something exist, then it is my duty to explain why. Atheist are not claiming God exist, which is why they are not the ones needing to support their lack of faith. Contrastingly, religious people are making a claim God does exist, thus they should be accountable for showing sufficient reasoning for why God does exist. As a result atheist have an annoying tendency to ask why about everything concerning religion. I believe several pages back Cwatson was touching this topic. I suppose to a religious person this is a poor question since belief in God is dependent on faith, which by its nature is irrational. The irrational part is something I have a hard time understanding and accepting.</p>
<p>Sauronvoldemort, the scientist who claim they know everything are poor scientist. Science describes the world we live in, but it does not explain why events take place at their deepest levels. I have a feeling you already know this, and hopefully so do most of the people on this forum.</p>
<p>Part of being a scientist is admitting we know nothing, and to build on that. Being religion is asserting you know everything (or your god does), and to die with that content.</p>
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Funny how atheists like you, demand to be treated respectfully for their beliefs, and yet you insult those who believe in God by blatantly trashing the Bible. Maybe you should reread your post before you start calling me ignorant. I don't care if you worship a shoe, don't trash something that means a lot to someone because you don't agree with what it says.
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<p>The Bible is arguably the best literary work of all time. Happy? What we think humorous is people actually believing in it and not holding it to the standards that they do other myths and fables. Little Red Riding hood is more realistic, but no one believes that...</p>
<p>We don't demand respect for are beliefs, because we dont have them; we just don't know :). We ask you to substaintiate your beliefs, and you fall flat on your face. There is nothing wrong with what oxypunk said about how religious beliefs ARE irrational, and that is okay. We agnostics (athiesm is just as bad as religion; being sure of something you are not) are most worried about those who consider religion logical. It is a nice, false, reassurement for most people but it absolutely cannot affect others or attempt to make any judgements.</p>
<p>Something like 85% of Americans consider themselves Christian. Saying we aren't a Christian nation is rediculous. Fortunantly, our domestic and foreign policies have managed to keep a lot of the Bible out. We may have a neutral government, but we are a democracy that is majorly Christian.</p>
<p>CWATSON, another agnostic! lol</p>
<p>i agree with you.</p>
<p>Just another cent in; most people do claim themselves to be a certain religion. I don't mean to question anyones faith on this forum but think; are you sure that you COMPLETELY believe and know that there is a heaven and hell? Do you know that there is a God because of your faith?</p>
<p>A lot of people don't. A lot of people are skeptical. That is why, although agnostic is usually placed next to athiest, it really is not the same thing. There are many agnostics who practice a religion; they're just skeptical.</p>
<p>Exactly, agnosticism is admitting your ignorance of the supernatural. Atheism is asserting your knowledge that the void is otherwise filled. Religion is acknowledging that void and filling it with whatever you please.</p>
<p>Religion and atheism are therefore ignorance (unless they know something we don't know...and can prove it). Agnosticism is the to the supernatural as uncertainty and curiosity is to the natural world.</p>
<p>Oh, and just because someone is ignorant in one sense doesn't mean that they are in any other sense.</p>