If a lot of people continue to fly the flag, and explain why, it may gradually take on a new meaning more distanced from assumed racism.
The UCI students passed a resolution that the American flag is a symbol of oppression, and voted to ban it. Were they wrong about its meaning?
I actually think it is a little ridiculous to think these two high school girls were communicating that they support slavery in the US.
^ True, but they communicated very well that they are a couple of dunderheads.
But only to some people. It seems to be very hard for some posters to grasp that not everyone responds to that flag in the same way you do. There actually are opinions different from yours that are also valid.
@dustypig with all due respect, your hostility is pretty extreme. I don’t happen to own a Confederate flag but I don’t get hysterical when I see something that offends me.
I’m not sure there would even be a story here if the only caption had read, “teens at Gettysburg reenact Pickett’s charge.”
The father of one of the girls tells a story about the photo that is somewhat different than the assumptions that have been made so far. What bothers me a little bit, having read a few of the articles, is that there were obviously adults present who could provide some context as to what the intent was here. But by their silence (unless I’ve missed something), they seem to be willing to throw these two under the proverbial bus.
Also, there appears to be no college mentioned in the story, so the possibility of a college rescinding admission is pure speculation.
" I don’t understand why so many people don’t get why many people in the south bear so much resentment toward the north. There is a fair amount of evidence that, had Lincoln not been killed, he would have worked very hard to bring the south back into the union. "
I don’t get why you’re still smarting over a war that ended 165 years ago.
Why do you think I’m smarting about it? I’m from PA (ie. the winning team, lol).
I’m just trying, without any apparent success, to explain that the people who froth at the mouth at the sight of the Confederate flag may just possibly be interpreting it’s display through a filter of their own prejudice. Having spent a fair amount of my childhood in the south (albeit with yankee parents), I’m quite familiar with the wide range of reasons some are attached to the symbol of their heritage, which does include much more than the plantation lifestyle which was enjoyed by very, very few. I heard my own parents repeat a lot of the stupid things I hear other people (from the north or midwest) say about the south and southerners which is puzzling in retrospect, since they made the choice to move there. Still, they seemed to cling to the notion that their northern heritage made them somehow superior to people who may have been more highly educated or accomplished, but spoke with a drawl.
I realize that I can’t convince anyone to change their own opinion, if they are determined to believe that they are right about everything all the time. It is possible though that some may recognize that their opinions aren’t really very well informed.
Because it’s only been 130 years. Give it another 35 years, and they’ll finally get over it.
“It seems to be very hard for some posters to grasp that not everyone responds to that flag in the same way you do.”
We grasp that perfectly well. We’re saying that the people who weren’t terrorized under this the flag should pay attention to the experience of people who were. If you don’t give a damn whether you’re evoking terror for other people or not, it says a lot about you.
Really? Just… really?
I think the whole thing is stupid. I think they were dumb. I see no evidence of acceptances being rescinded but you really don’t understand why people are still upset about a “war” (as though that’s all it was) even if it happened several generations ago?
How many states still have pieces of the Confederate flag, or elements of its design, in their state flag? If students’ college acceptances can be rescinded for displaying the Confederate flag, should kids from those states be rescinded for displaying their state flag?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_U.S._states
Mississippi is obvious to most people, since the well known CSA battle flag is part of its flag. Georgia is obvious to those who know what the CSA first national flag looks like, but many people are not familiar with the CSA first national flag. Some have claimed that the Alabama flag’s “X” (St. Andrew’s cross) was inspired by the CSA battle flag.
Is there actually any indication that there is a college involved and that it may rescind admission, or is being pressured to rescind admission?
Actually our local hindu temple has a swastika symbol on its side (looks slightly different from the Nazi one)The swastika had long been (for millenia probably) a symbol of eastern religions, especially hinduism and buddhism, and the Nazis simply perverted it in their use. That said, I, nor any of the many Hindus I know, wear any clothing or gear with swastika symbols or have any merchandise with swastika symbols because it would just prompt unnecessary discussions. *see sidenote on Nazis
From what I know, the Confederate flag is a much more clear symbol of racism rather than Southern Pride. Our acceptance of slavery in the past has to be our most shameful moment, and the Civil War was fought upon the right to continue and expand slavery (more so the expansion part as it was obvious that slavery would die out if it wasn’t expanded). The confederate flag has also been used at many racist demonstrations in the last century plus. It’s also worrying that in recent times many southern states, aided by court decisions, have made it more difficult for minorities to vote (bogus Voter ID laws and eliminating early registration or registration in schools; see NC), and made many schools de facto segregated again.
Taking a photo with the confederate flag at a civil war memorial makes it pretty likely in my opinion that the girl is racist. I have some racist friends, and although I somewhat tolerate them, when they make racist comments (notably this friend made several racist comments in the aftermath of the Freddie Gray death at police hands) I find it very hard to speak to them and it bothers me greatly.
Whether or not the students should be rescinded or not is difficult for me to determine, but I think that they have exhibited their colors are racists and should therefore not be a part of the campus environment.
I don’t have anything against the South, in fact I would like to take a lengthy visit of the Deep South and Texas as their culture and simplicity appeals to me (I don’t think the right type of economic opportunities exist there for me to live there long-term) and liked a lot about Nashville when I visited. Atlanta is also possibly my favorite city in the U.S.A.
*As a lengthy side note I think the depiction of the Nazis as unimaginably evil and the worst people ever and the Allies, especially the UK and the USA as some gold standard of humanity to be a prime example of victor’s history. The nazis essentially did not do much other than simply colonize continental Europe, doing to Europe what it had done to the rest of the world. The adored Winston Churchill was extremely racist and caused massive famines in India through his racism: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/2010/10/how_churchill_starved_india.html. Or after the war, the British would essentially set up concentration camps in north african countries trying to retain power. Or how the French would want to use nuclear weapons on Vietnam. Or the actions of the Belgium people in the Congo that was essentially a genocide. Or our despicable use of chemical weapons upon French IndoChina.
Can we all at least agree that the Civil War formally ended 150 years ago, in 1865? Reconstruction then followed.
Regarding immediacy, PG, through my teens I saw my maternal grandparents (who lived close by) several days each week. Both had fathers who were wounded in the Civil War. One spent two years in the Point Lookout Prison Camp where 4,000 died.
My grandfather was a southerner who had a great academic career in the north. And the only flag of his that I was ever aware of was an American flag that his unit had flown on the battlefield in France in WWI.
So, yes, many of us knew people who still felt the scars of a war that ended 150 years ago.
Oh really… so organized, institutional mass extermination of entire ethnic groups would fall under the category of “simply colonizing?”
Seriously?
The Civil War was fought for more complicated reasons, and Northerners had slaves too. This PC reaction is an oversimplification. And whoever posted the photo is not responsible for the comments, the worst of which seemed, to me, to be sardonic and critical humor, not support for slavery.
If slavery and racism had so little to do with the Civil War, we wouldn’t have needed the Civil Rights Movement 100 years later. Let’s not all kid ourselves by acting like the south “wasn’t” or “isn’t” that racist, because it isn’t true. People are free to fly their flag, and other people are free to interpret it how they see fit. I don’t see how anyone could “not know” that is has a racist connotation for many, though not all people. If you fly a flag knowing it’s various connotations, that in itself proves a point to the opposition that even if you aren’t a racist, you don’t care if people think you are. And to me, that says something in itself.
ouch. Perhaps this is difficult for people to understand whose families haven’t lived in the same place for generations and feel strong ties to the land. There are still physical reminders of the swathe of destruction by Northern troops in the South. In addition to the destruction of physical property, a generation of men were lost. Compare this to reminders of WWI and WWII in Europe. When you live in an area where there was significant bombing, there still may be daily reminders of wars that seem like ancient events to others. I know women who lost their sweethearts, fiancees, husbands, sons to WWII and that changed their lives and the lives of their families. For generations. Some of that impact is still felt today.
I am certainly no apologist for the confederacy, but the destruction of some parts of south and violence towards the civilian population was unnecessary. Conquered populations usually suffer after wars. Reconstruction is an example of that. To expect people to just get over it in a few generations seems unrealistic (and a little bit insulting and unsympathetic) to me. It’s sort of like saying to just get over slavery since it’s been more than 100 years. The repercussions are still with us. We just don’t always like to acknowledge them because history is so ugly.
“The past is never dead. It’s not even past.” Faulkner
Yes, colonial rulers often treated their native populations in a brutal manner. Genocide isn’t a phenomenon unique to the Nazis although they did it on a much larger scale, perhaps due to the size of their “colony”. See how Leopold of Belgium enslaved the population of Congo and decimated it, or how the revered Winston Churchill created a famine in India that led to the death of millions during WW2 because of his racism, or see how we enabled Pakistan to commit genocide in Bangladesh during their independence war by supporting Pakistan, or the despicable chemical weapons and destructive bombing we used in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. Or let us also remember that the U.S.S.R murdered millions of its own citizens and brutally treated German POWs and those who dissented in the ussr and Eastern Europe. Or that the British had set up concentration camps in Souyh Africa earlier than concentration camps in Kenya after WW2? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/not-his-finest-hour-the-dark-side-of-winston-churchill-2118317.html
Are you going to argue that Churchill is all that much more moral than hitter? We entered and fought WW2 for geopolitical purposes and then as the victors we have dubbed ourselves as morally superior when we were not.
Again. I’m not saying that what the nazis did wasn’t terribly awful, it was. But it’s foolish to pretend that the allies and other European nations hadn’t engaged in similar terrible atrocities before, during, and after the war. Perhaps you can argue that the nazis were even more morally awful, but it’s utter foolishness to not consider both sides as being despicable.