I like Hans Zimmer, who I dont believe was really formally trained . He and Adele reinterpreting George Michael’s Fastlove at the Grammy’s after his death was very moving. And so many film scores.
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Yes, but I think the OP was talking about the various ways concert composers get paid. HZ is one in a billion in so many ways… my point is there are many ways composers can get paid, not just through commissioning. I will say most working composers DON’T get paid fairly for their work, even if they do receive commissions, performance royalties, etc. It’s a hard life.
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@DrPrimo Primo I posted the study on commissions with graphs that I found interesting. Given that it appeared on the New Music USA site, it pertains to a world many are not familiar with. Fortunately, you are and I have enjoyed the discussion.
Yes… just fixed! I know I don’t get paid fairly! 
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Ha! And I was about to ask your secret on getting paid fairly for the up and coming composers I know. 
I’ve read this thread over time and hesitated to participate and so held off. After reading some posts by @bridgenail (whom I don’t know), I decided to pop in.
My kid is a professional composer, but was not formally trained. And one reason I hesitated to post is she is not composing orchestral concert music which seems like a significant aspect of this thread.
My daughter went to college for musical theater performance and also performs professionally now in musicals. However, her career is not just as a MT performer. She writes, composes, as well as writes lyrics for original musicals. She does not write any on speculation and all are paid commissions. Some of her musicals are now licensed and she is paid each time an entity performs them. She was not trained to be a composer, but she’s good at it and she is commissioned to compose these musicals. I notice Elton John was mentioned, and my daughter has also been a collaborator with him, btw. She’s won many awards as a composer/lyricist.
She also is a singer/songwriter, which is contemporary music that is not musical theater genre and is a signed artist on a major record label and her albums are all original songs she composed. She also performs original songs regularly in concerts (for pay).
She has no “survival” jobs and makes her entire living in NYC through performing, composing music for musicals, lyric writing, and songwriting (also sometimes commissioned to write a song for something like a TV show or the Emmy Awards, etc.)
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I think this is so important. In my opinion, the more musicians, performers, artists are willing and able to diversify, the more employable they can be. Absolutely a great skill to be able to juggle many jobs and projects (whether in the music field or not) and be fulfilled doing it.
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I very much believe that one key to my daughter’s success is that she has a diverse skill set and has several “careers” going at one time. I talk to students and parents going into the musical theater field (I’m a college counselor), and I often bring this up. My kid doesn’t simply audition to be cast. She creates original work (and often performs in that work). She has 3 simultaneous careers all in the fields of music and theater. The fact that she can do more than one thing, means she is always working. Further, she doesn’t do any “survival” jobs in conjunction with the professional work she truly wants to be doing.
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We really are discussing different worlds. My kid’s world relates to the article from New Music USA and some posts, like yours @soozievt, almost relate to a different field. My original post did not pertain to orchestral music (though the linked graph included it) but rather contemporary classical (academic if you will) tending toward the experimental. I am not sure that many people are even aware of that work. I expected people to both shocked and nod their heads in agreement at the article.
It is an interesting notion that an experimental composer (and many PhD’s tend that way and view composing as a kind of research) might transition to more popular or more commercial endeavors. Some might and some might prefer a day job. Philip Glass drove a cab and Ives was an insurance agent.
Glad to hear of all these successes. The commission pay in the article remains a reality in the contemporary classical “new music” field with 37% of performances getting no pay at all. There are all kinds of ways to deal with this and much discussion among peers, since academia is no longer a certain refuge, even with the 12 years of undergrad/doctoral training.
@compmom Sorry, I did not read the article you had posted and was just reading the conversation. I understand that the thread was dealing with contemporary concert music, which is why I originally chose not to participate. Agreed that composing for musical theater is a different field, but still commented since someone else brought that into the conversation and my kid is in that field and is paid for every composition (all are by commission) and is paid when those musical licenses are used by various theaters. I realize it is not the same as the topic/genre you are discussing. Just pointed out this variation of music composition, as well as songwriting, and it is a full time paying career for my kid. I was drawn to the thread by its title of how composers are paid and my kid is a composer.
@soozievt I imagine attendance at your daughter’s shows is considerably higher than at “new music” concerts (non-orchestral) and that her album sells better too 
I encourage anyone interested in this thread to read the original article in the first post, and look at the graphs. The big factor here is the adjunctification of higher ed and the decline of arts and humanities.
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I have now skimmed the article. My daughter doesn’t compose for any musicals unless paid and commissioned. She also has an agent for this work.
The size of my daughter’s shows has not really been a factor in her pay. I don’t know entirely how it works, but she is commissioned to create the work and paid before it is ever performed. She is paid as the writer, composer, lyricist and performer (in many cases) for the run of the show as well. I don’t think the size of the audience has been a factor so far. She also performs in concerts as a singer/songwriter regularly and the size of those venues varies widely.
When she is commissioned to compose a musical, it isn’t about the size of the audience, but a rate just to compose the work. For instance, she is currently working on a new musical that I can’t mention that a Broadway/Hollywood producer has commissioned for. It is not like there is even a theater lined up for it at this point. The pay has nothing to do with the audience size.
She also is paid every time a professional theater, community theater, school or college licenses her shows and they have been produced all over the country and in other countries and so she is paid each time for that too.
In terms of the album, I don’t know that sales are the big factor…I believe she was paid a significant amount when being signed with the record label. They produce albums now for her (whereas she self produced albums before that) and so she did not have to spend any money to do so. I bet the amount paid for every album sold is not that much, but I don’t know.
IF, and that is a big IF, one of her original musicals goes to Broadway (it is a possibility in the next year), then I’m sure it will pay a lot more, likely for every performance (as composer, lyricist, and writer)…and of course, she is the lead in it and so for that too. But she has already been paid for creating the show, as it was commissioned by producers. Each year, whether it is performed or not, she keeps getting paid if the producers want to maintain the rights to the show. I don’t know the ins and outs of it all as she is an adult and I am not privy to the payments, but nothing she does is unpaid.
This sounds wonderful and your daughter is very, very talented! What do most do that that are not at her level doing for a living?
@sevmom You are asking about “most” and I know this thread is not about musical theater or songwriters. Many who went to college with my daughter in her musical program, which was performing (not composing…she never studied composition)…some just audition to be in shows and when not in shows, they have “survival jobs” unrelated to their field. However, many of my daughter’s peers are successful and again, as mentioned in another post, often they have a diverse skill set…some perform in musicals but are also singer/songwriters who put out albums and perform original music in concerts (my daughter does this too), and some have gone onto the highest levels as playwrights, composers, choreographers, actors in movies and on TV, and so on. Some do this as their full time living and some do not. I know many of them who have starred on Broadway. She has a lot of friends who have won Tonys, Oscars, Emmys, Grammys, and some who are “names” you would know, and some are not as well known but working professionally and regularly, and some peers who studied in her program are no longer in the field at all. And of course, there are those who audition and are sometimes cast and working in a show, and at other times, working a side hustle (my kid doesn’t do that though). I think ONE reason my daughter is always working is because she has 3 careers in music and theater, not just one (she is not relying on just auditioning and being cast…in fact, I don’t think she has auditioned in several years). There’s something to be said for “create your own work,” and even better, is when people pay you to create your own work, which luckily has been her situation.
This thread is getting pretty far away from the article and is veering from what might be called previously academic music to commercial music, which pays. A typical new music concert with a small ensemble might have 40 attendees tops in some cases. Everyone knows each other and goes out for a drink Again the PhD’s who compose in that genre used to work in academia.
Some go from residency to residency and many go to Europe where the funding for this type of work is better.
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I probably should have stuck with my original inclination to not participate on the thread because it centers more on concert music (though the title just mentions composer which got me to read it). Sorry about that.
I imagine your daughter has a cohort of professionals in her field to discuss this in depth, and there may not be a lot of CC parents of kids doing this exact same thing.
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Well the title of my thread was about “composers” so it is interesting to read about what does actually pay !
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You’re comparing apples and oranges…
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@DrPrimo No problem. As I think I already wrote, the thread’s subject heading says “composers” and my daughter is indeed a composer, among other things. I fully understand that composing orchestral works, concert pieces, musicals, songwriting, are not the same.
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The article posted does refer to a certain species And the graph is very telling. I hope it stirred your interest.
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