<p>As published in today's Baltimore Sun:</p>
<p>Wow. There's a whole bunch of people on that BS site (many of them with "USNA 'XX" after their names), who would be skewered here by some who think they know better (and no, I don't mean Jadler).</p>
<p>The comments are best summed up by this one: "If it's a zero-tolerance policy, then why is there counseling?" </p>
<p>I say, "AMEN, BROTHER!" :mad:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The academy's adoption of a simple "memory aid" -- 0-0-1-3 -- to remind midshipmen of the rules (zero alcohol for underage midshipmen, zero when driving, one standard drink per hour, and no more than three drinks "per occasion") creates a model other service academies could emulate. That reasonable standard, if followed by other college students, as well as the rest of us drinkers, would go a long way toward reducing much of the widespread harm associated with drinking.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is the problem I have with crap like this.</p>
<p>First off, Midshipmen are smart enough not to need a simple "memory aid" to help them avoid trouble, alcohol-related or not. If you need a simple "memory aid" to remember not to get drunk and stupid, then you need to be attending some other school.</p>
<p>Second, why is this a "reasonable" standard? "Reasonable" to who? What scientific basis is it based upon? Is it universal? Does the 250-pound jock have to follow the same standard as the 120-pound geek?</p>
<p>"Simple memory aids" should be limited to "Can Dead Men Vote Twice At Elections" and "Even Red Nuns Have Odd Green Cans", not "Don't get drunk and stupid".</p>
<p>I hate it when people treat Mids like kids. Mids hate it even more. Treat them like adults and they will ACT like adults.</p>
<p>ETA:</p>
<p>Oh, cripes. Look who wrote this thing:</p>
<p>
[quote]
GEORGE A. HACKER
Director, Alcohol Policies Project
Center for Science in the Public Interest
[/quote]
This is the same bunch that loves going around telling you how stupid you are for actually having the temerity to enjoy your food the way YOU want to enjoy it. I should have known. Only speacial-interest groups use terms like "reasonable standard". Nothing more than a bunch of busybodies with a fax machine and a desire to tell everyone else what to do. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Zaphod,</p>
<p>"Treat them like adults and they will ACT like adults."</p>
<p>Definitely true...BUT, the few that have done "stupid" things have ruined it for everyone. And I know you are totally aware at the Academy if one person screws up, EVERYONE screws up...if one person gets into trouble for doing something while drunk, EVERYONE will benefit from the consequences....is it fair??? maybe or maybe not....but it doesn't matter because the CO has the ultimate say.</p>
<p>If a plebe fails 2 pro-quizzes, the plebe's youngster's take the next pro-quiz; for each additional pro-quiz failure, the next member class (along with the previous class) has to take the next pro-quiz. Is that fair? I am an upperclass, I am not a plebe..."treat me like an adult"!</p>
<p>If 10 MIDN in a given class show up late to a brief, then everyone is punished is that fair? I am an adult, I conducted myself like an adult...why did I lose liberty?</p>
<p>If the Brigade says "You Suck" as in referring to the other team or the refs, but, say half the Brigade doesn't say it, there is punishment....is that fair?...Those MIDN were acting like adults by not joining the chant!</p>
<p>Furthermore, in my opinion, some MIDN don't know what responsible drinking is. I agree that a memory aid, most likely, would not help.</p>
<p>Zero-tolerence is for DUI's and underage drinking. Both illegal in the civilian world...how is that unreasonable???</p>
<p>Otherwise, chances are you are going to get a warning for irresponsible drinking...essentially that is the counseling. </p>
<p>The point is the military usually treats people like adults until someone screws it up for others! Face it, a few years back there was no official policy...but the number of alcohol incidents (as I mentioned before) have really picked up (so I am told).</p>
<p>Edit: Just read some of the opinions from the Baltimore Sun.</p>
<p>Use the honor concept...would never work...plus, it is against the honor concept to "randomly" ask a person whether they drank x number of drinks. Plus the offense wouldn't be an honor offense, unless they flat out lied and someone saw. Then you would need witnesses...etc....BAD IDEA!</p>
<p>Not driving with any alcohol in the body??? Totally FALSE! DUI is the same as the civilian world (BAC .08 & higher)! If a MIDN has .06 and drove that IS NOT illegal NOR against the 0013 policy!</p>
<p>This post is to add on to what Zaphod has been saying. We keep talking about education, responsible drinking and the like. For the majority of people, the best education to drink responsibly is to be given freedom concerned to drinking. Zaphod stated earlier that after getting obliterated as a young Div O he learned how to drink reponsibly. People in general need to know there limits. The best time to do that is while they are still in the protective barrier of the Academy. After graduation, there is going to be no one breathing down their back, and the stakes are much higher. Alcohol will contribute to the occasional isolated incident at the academy. However, at least in my opinion, better for a few isolated alcohol problems while at the academy then later in the real world where problems can only be compounded.</p>
<p>jadler03:
[quote]
And I know you are totally aware at the Academy if one person screws up, EVERYONE screws up...if one person gets into trouble for doing something while drunk, EVERYONE will benefit from the consequences....is it fair??? maybe or maybe not....but it doesn't matter because the CO has the ultimate say.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I may have mentioned this previously. In the Seabees we called this "battalion punishment." Unfortunately, everyone suffers when a few "bad apples" screw up. In theory, those who are punished unfairly will exert a tremendous amount of peer pressure on the "screw ups" to get them in line. If part of a unit screws up, the whole unit screwed up. </p>
<p>We used to call the disciplinary system at the academy RME or "Realistic Military Environment." :confused:</p>
<p>I agree with itlstallion,</p>
<p>I think the Academy should hold an event where MIDN (maybe by company) can drink all they want until they reach or barely exceed .08. Then the MIDN will know how much they can drink. Thus, they will know their limits. Of course, the people on duty would make sure the MIDN didn't do anything stupid.</p>
<p>USNA doesn't want to gradaute MIDN who will be a drinking problem in the fleet. Maybe the standard should be that if you had an incident as a 3/C and a 2/C...goodbye?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Zaphod stated earlier that after getting obliterated as a young Div O he learned how to drink reponsibly.
[/quote]
Actually, I got obliterated SPECIFICALLY because I knew how to use alcohol, and decided not to bother that night. ;)</p>
<p>Oy! I'll never do THAT again! </p>
<p>
[quote]
Definitely true...BUT, the few that have done "stupid" things have ruined it for everyone.
[/quote]
I hear you, and I know exactly what you're saying, but that doesn't make treating the rest like children the right thing to do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but it doesn't matter because the CO has the ultimate say.
[/quote]
Never said anything different. Doesn't mean I have to agree with him.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If a plebe fails 2 pro-quizzes, the plebe's youngster's take the next pro-quiz; for each additional pro-quiz failure, the next member class (along with the previous class) has to take the next pro-quiz. Is that fair? I am an upperclass, I am not a plebe..."treat me like an adult"!
[/quote]
That's a new one. Didn't happen in my day. You failed a Pro-Quiz, YOU were on the chopping block. Sure, your upperclassmen got spoken to if the trend continued, but they didn't sit you down to take the test, either.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If 10 MIDN in a given class show up late to a brief, then everyone is punished is that fair? I am an adult, I conducted myself like an adult...why did I lose liberty?
[/quote]
I may have lost where you were going, but now you're urguing MY point...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Furthermore, in my opinion, some MIDN don't know what responsible drinking is. I agree that a memory aid, most likely, would not help.
[/quote]
No doubt that some would have to learn the hard way. It's the law of averages.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Zero-tolerence is for DUI's and underage drinking. Both illegal in the civilian world...how is that unreasonable???
[/quote]
Never said they weren't. I just don't think you need a memory aid to remember that. If we take this to its logical conclusion, and in light of recent unfortunate events, are we going to develop a memory aid to remember that rape is illegal? Let's see: "If you must force it to fit, we won't acquit." That works. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Otherwise, chances are you are going to get a warning for irresponsible drinking...essentially that is the counseling.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The point is the military usually treats people like adults until someone screws it up for others!
[/quote]
Then, by definition, they don't treat them as adults. They treat them like subjects (same with government). </p>
<p>
[quote]
Face it, a few years back there was no official policy...but the number of alcohol incidents (as I mentioned before) have really picked up (so I am told).
[/quote]
Bull. There has been an official policy on drinking since I was a Mid, and long before that. The problem is that none of them were ever strictly enforced when Mids screwed up. As such, the whole Brigade lost some freedom each time instead of the one guilty person losing their title of Midshipman. That is neither fair, effective at teaching, nor efficient.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Use the honor concept...would never work...plus, it is against the honor concept to "randomly" ask a person whether they drank x number of drinks. Plus the offense wouldn't be an honor offense, unless they flat out lied and someone saw. Then you would need witnesses...etc....BAD IDEA!
[/quote]
How is that a bad idea? "Someone saw you out in town drunk off your butt. True or false?" That is not entrapment, nor is it random screening. It is part of an investigation into an alleged incident, and the Honor Concept DOES apply then.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not driving with any alcohol in the body??? Totally FALSE! DUI is the same as the civilian world (BAC .08 & higher)! If a MIDN has .06 and drove that IS NOT illegal NOR against the 0013 policy!
[/quote]
"No alcohol in the body" is just as unreasonable as expecting Mids to walk around with portable breathalyzers. I don't walk around with one, but I know darn well that if I'm driving, I better not be drinking. It's called being responsible for MY own actions. If they pull someone over for DWI, I don't expect them to walk across the street to where I am and demand I take a breathalyzer with no other probable cause to do so.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the Academy should hold an event where MIDN (maybe by company) can drink all they want until they reach or barely exceed .08. Then the MIDN will know how much they can drink.
[/quote]
A) It will never happen. The Washington Compost, the BS, and the rest of the usual suspects would howl like stuck pigs if the Navy held a drinking party under ANY guise.</p>
<p>B) Your limit tonight will be different than your limit a week from now, and will depend on too many variables that you either cannot control, or are so varied that the party would have to take a month or more just to cover all the posibilities.</p>
<p>Tell the Mids that underage drinking, DUI, and DWI means instant expulsion and shipment to the Fleet. Getting drunk will not be accepoted as an excuse for "not knowing what I was doing" or "not knowing what was going on". Screw up bad enough and you're gone. In other words, tell the Mids that they are taking their careers into their hand along with that drink, and they'd better be ready to face the music.</p>
<p>Here's my memory aid: "You're adults and Junior Officers. ACT LIKE IT."</p>
<p>Honor Concept will not work.</p>
<p>What happens, as you say in your case, if someone is DRUNK and they don't admit to it? First of all there would have to be more than one witness, because most likely if it is a he/she said kind of thing, I doubt the board will find the person in violation (one thing, being drunk is a judgement, and you would need 2/3rd's to convict). Secondly, most MIDN (and I'm talking about over of a majority) will not turn their friends in, unless they are required to breathalyze the MIDN. Usually an officer or SEL has to be there, so there is no choice. Third, what if the person does admit to being drunk....its not an honor offense any more...and most likely, by the time the person is questioned (not the same night), the person isn't drunk and what proof is there to convict? It would be a conduct offense...but the only thing they could nab the MIDN for is conduct unbecoming and/or disorderly conduct, since he/she wasn't breathalyzed.</p>
<p>I just find the whole honor thing just a bad idea...and it would put a lot of weight on the honor staff becasue they have enough cases to deal with as is. Furthermore, now you are trying to get people kicked out for an honor offense, when they could get warned for excessive drinking before they are booted.</p>
<p>Breathalyzers are the best way and it doesn't even take that long.</p>
<p>Bad wording with "official - enforced - policy"....but there has been more "significant" events like people falling out of things due to alcohol consumption. </p>
<p>Well with the drinking event, which I agree will never happen, it would give a general idea of where they can drink from. Of course there other factors that change, but it would be better than not knowing the general area.</p>
<p>MIDN aren't going to have problems with DUI if they drink responsibly. So how does the policy promote not drinking at all and not driving? Parents, students, legal people do it with a few glasses without exceeding .08. The police are the ones enforcing DUI's...so its their call.</p>
<p>Edit:
"You're adults and Junior Officers. ACT LIKE IT."</p>
<p>Thats a very good memory aid...so what happens when they don't act like it?</p>
<p>
[quote]
and it would put a lot of weight on the honor staff becasue they have enough cases to deal with as is.
[/quote]
Excuse me? What the HELL is going on up there? Have things gotten so bad that the Honor Staff is OVERWORKED?</p>
<p>GOOD GRIEF! :mad:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Thats a very good memory aid...so what happens when they don't act like it?
[/quote]
They cease being Midshipmen. End of story. What's so complicated about it?</p>
<p>Look, the Sup is the Sup and this new numbered thing is his policy. I may not agree that it's the best way to handle it, but I really do hope it works. Whatever is done, I REALLY hope it works. I'm sick of hearing about Mids getting into trouble involving alcohol, and your comment above about the Honor Staff just gave me a whole other headache. :(</p>
<p>Well I would say in any given year there are over 100 offenses. Thats whats been passed down...last year (somehow, was a lot better than others...maybe a trend is starting) there were only 80 something. To me that is a lot...more than needed (about 40/sem). Thats an average of 2.5 cases a week. Not all go to the honor board now (the honor system has been revised), but the honor system still takes a bit to run. If you threw alcohol cases under the honor system and assumed almost every incident was reported...there would be a few more cases every week....thus, it isn't worth to make the load a lot more than it is already.</p>
<p>Well, I agree that you cannot handle conduct offenses through the Honor Concept exclusively. Makes no sense. I just think the Honor Concept does have its place in this whole deal.</p>
<p>So, how did they "revise" the Honor Concept? (Zaphod braces for MORE bad news...)</p>
<p>More MIDN control....offenses can be on the Company, Battalion, Regiment level, instead of just Brigade level.</p>
<p>Hmmmm. Interesting....</p>
<p>By James Joyner as published in Outside the Beltway</p>
<p>
[quote]
Unfortunately, the Naval Academy has had serious problems with its honor code and has scrapped it for a wishy-washy “Honor Concept.”
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Mr. Joyner doesn't know what the heck he is talking (or writing) about. The Naval Academy never had an Honor Code.</p>
<p>The posted comments following the article are an interesting read.</p>
<p>From today's Washington Compost:</p>