<p>xiggi, agreed.</p>
<p>I agree with Donemom in that I would never recommend leaving one's fate to the recommendations of a GC or teacher. We are not permitted to read the recs, and so there is no way of verifying that the information you want to convey is getting to the school. IMO, that's too much of a risk. There definitely are activities that may not impress on face value until knowing a little bit more about the level of responsibility and involvement. For example, if you were class treasurer, that may be a nothing job in one school, but another student may take on the role to the point where they organized and ran fundraisers all on their own, bringing in 50,000 dollars of which half went to charity - you get the point. In a case like that, just saying that you were treasurer would not at all capture the full scope of what the job entailed for that kid. On the other hand, certain impressive, albeit well known activities and awards are obvious with just a few words (Science Olympiad Gold Medal winner, Intel finalist, for example). </p>
<p>I would also tend to disagree with using the essays to accomplish this. The essays may be fine for focusing in on a single activity, but they are not the place for a list or description of this sort.</p>
<p>My son did call all the schools on his list and was given instructions in each case for how to submit an activities list, so it's obvious that many kids do these and that they are accepted by the schools. If they really wanted no part of these , they would have stated that to him, and that was not the case. In my opinion, these are not a negative, as long as they are done well.</p>
<p>Yes, my son is at Harvard, and daughter at Brown, both their first choices. And both had three page resumes. They, however, used the format of the common ap, meaning they went in order of activities most important to them, with brief descriptions ONLY in cases where something would not be known to the adcoms without it. They did not include any information such as scores or courses that were already listed in the application. Both did include all their awards, including ones given by the highschool. (while those were less presigeous than the regional or national ones they got, being selected as the top student in a wide variety of subjects over many years shows well-roundedness that I believe adds something to the picture). So, we'll never know, as Xiggi says, whether my kids' success was "because" of their approach or "in spite of it", but I believe that if a resume is very organized, concise, easy to follow, assumes reasonable knowledge of the adcoms, and only includes things that truly add important parts to the picture, I say don't fret about the length.</p>
<p>It's much more important that a resume be readable than it be contained in one-page. My eyes glaze over documents in 10-point font with hardly any margin or space between paragraphs. A reader will be more willing to flip pages than to look for a magnidying glass!</p>
<p>My view is that an Admissions Rep is free to disregard the resume if he/she is not interested. But there is no way for them to understand some activities/awards without an additional document. I think the greater risk is in not apprising them of pertinent information. But I certainly agree that the resume should be reasonable, succinct and add (not repeat information) to the application. S1 included a CD, resume and an additional item related to his proposed major, and was very successful in his acceptances.</p>
<p>Again, the idea of the attached activity/award list is not meant to provide a chance to list MORE activities but rather to show just what a student did and in some cases, explain what it is which is not always clear by a two word title. </p>
<p>I do agree with Xiggi that listing times in a sport, etc. are not what is necessary on a resume to adcoms. That type of detail is more appropriate in a listing sent to a coach. </p>
<p>However, I can think of lots of things on my kids' resumes that would never have been able to be truly shown on the little chart. As I said earlier, on some apps, they STILL filled out the chart so the school had the chart and could have chosen to just read that, even though they wrote, "see attached" as well. However, many schools stated right ON the app or said so on the phone, that they could skip the chart and just write "see attached resume" as long as they included the information asked for on the application. All said that attaching a resume was FINE. </p>
<p>The resumes my kids and clients wrote are organized into categories that fit who they are. The outline form is readily skimmed. The hours/week, weeks per year, etc. are included in a format. In fact, my kids and clients, also write total number of years next to an activity that has a significant number (8-12 years) which they can't write on the activity chart on the app, yet I think it at least shows that certain activities have been lifelong and were not begun in HS or to get into college. </p>
<p>Any achievements or awards related to the activity are WITH the activity. Only academic awards have a separate category for awards. There is an annotation that explains what the activity was and what their role in it involved. For instance, if a kid initiated the activity and organized it, that would not be apparent on the little chart. The titles to many activities and awards mean nothing to those who are not familiar with what they are, so a little description helps. For instance, National Piano Playing Auditions...my kids have done for ten years....one sentence explains what these are. My kid does theater and has been in 45 productions of various types from professional to school. All of that is hard to put into one line on the chart. For instance, she has performed with the National Symphony at the Kennedy Center....how does that come up as it is not an ongoing activity but is part of a summary of her theater activities. My kid in sports has been in various championships and other achievements that should go with the sport. The name of her weekend training program in one sport would mean nothing if nobody knew what it meant or was about. One of my kids initiated, produced, created, directed, musically directed, choreographed two student musical revues which had never been done before at her school, and raised money for charity...it is too hard to say what that was in a 12 letter space. Another initiated a policy committee and created a policy for her school that eventually was adopted by the school board, over a two year period....hard to give that a two word title and know what it was really about. One kid has "Peace Concert and Teach In" and you'd have NO idea WHAT that was or how she created and organized it and what it involved, etc. if just listing that title. And yes, a teacher rec commented on it too. No, her essay wasn't on it as she has other significant things she used the essays to show. However, this was still a major undertaking of hers. I also know that when I read the criteria used to select students as Tisch Scholars at NYU (something she was selected to be that we didn't even KNOW existed until she recieved it) included leadership and initiative and some of the things on her resume dovetail into exactly what I have now read they were looking for and I am SURE the resume was a factor in her selection to a program that has many perks such as free educational trips abroad and more. For some sports, there were many awards...in the press, state wide, locally...that should be WITH the listing of the sport. For music, various All State or music competitions, as well as various musical ensembles one plays in go together and are hard to put into a one liner on a chart. Both my kids had numerous music awards, selections. and activities that could not fit on the one line in the chart for "music". Putting "dance" grades 9-12 on a line on a chart is not the same as showing all the different dance disciplines studied or that it was an activity actively engaged in for 13 years, along with select dance repertory troupes, and some teaching of kids' classes, etc. etc. My kids' ECs are not a laundry list of minor things. They have each been involved in a SIGNIFICANT capacity with many hours per week and weeks per year for their entire lives in several different activities. They grouped these together under categories that differed from categories another person may have. </p>
<p>Each resume entry is organized but much more descriptive than the chart. I can think of many activities and jobs my clients have done that would not mean a thing in a three word title but with a resume entry listing and brief description, I understood it. An internship should explain what it entailed. If someone is in student government and accomplished something, that is hard to show if they just write "Student Senator". Several awards are self explanatory but many need a one line to explain what it is given for. I have had to ask clients to tell me what certain awards meant so that I understood their significance or lack thereof. The name of a summer program means nothing if we don't know what it involved. Someone can skim the resume and just read the boldface entries with corresponding achievements or take a few more minutes and read the very brief annotations. </p>
<p>I don't think this is at all like writing a 1000 word essay when they ask for 500 words. I think going over the word limit but staying in the ballpark in that case, is critical. But the resume is different. We called every school for D1 and asked if it was OK and all said YES. Some said fill out the little two inch chart anyway and others said that was not even necessary to do. Brown's application doesn't even use a little activity/award chart and gives a big blank page or two for this information and says what they want on it. A resume SHOULD include everything that was asked for but it is OK to format it as a document that is more complete than a two inch chart can show. I know my kids spent a min. of 30 hours per week (usually MORE) on ECs and these were a major part of their lives for years and frankly could not be shown very well on a little chart that allows three words to name each activity. Their essays did not regurgitate their activities. Their rec writers and GC got a copy of these resumes which they could also choose to comment on but can't replace the documentation of their EC lives. </p>
<p>If these well done activity resumes were such a bad thing, we'd not be seeing kids getting into very selective schools who used these. The resumes didn't get them in necessarily but they didn't keep them out. I believe the adcoms got a much fuller picture of who the student was as a WHOLE person when combining the resume, essays, and recs. All applicants who apply to very selective schools have the basic stats necessary to get in. It is the other stuff that shows who they are and how they differ from the next kid. I am a college counselor for College Confidential and I can tell you that we have all of our clients develop these resumes. A parent of one of my clients remarked that her son got a note from the adcom about the activities which were demonstrated on the resume and they could tell the resume helped show what he had done. I can't claim that the resume got my kids into college as I think it was PART of their total package but I can say that they had successful admissions outcomes and I believe when reading their entire app package when coupled with the recs which supported the same "messages" the student tried to convey about herself, truly gave a picture of the student beyond the numbers. </p>
<p>Remember that the resume is not meant to convey MORE activities or each insignficant thing....but it meant to show BETTER what is asked for on the Activity Chart, Summer List, Work Experience, and Award list. Those can still be filled in ON the app, as my kids usually did, but the attachment is meant as an organized document with the same information but much more complete and more descriptive in nature. It is an opportunity to show just who you are, along with the essays. Some information can be on the resume and then the essays can be used to show other attributes about oneself, rather than to describe WHAT you have done. </p>
<p>People do not HAVE to do these if they don't want. I just don't want to discourage anyone from doing so and in fact, I guide all of my clients in translating their activites into a well organized document of this nature. I wish every kid who I interviewed for admissions to my alma mater showed me such a document! Only a couple ever have. My kids gave every interviewer such a document and all seemed to appreciate it and I do believe it helped.</p>
<p>Soozie brings up a good point. At my sons' school every student is required to create a resume to give to any teacher of whom they are requesting a recommendation. In addition, S1 brought a copy to every interview, and I think it was a useful tool for structuring the discussion.</p>
<p>The problem with the 3 page resume is not that the student will be rejected for the bad manners of submitting one - it is that the reader may never see past the first page. It is like a job application because it is submitting paperwork to an extremely busy person who may have to review hundreds of applications every week, and whose job it is to quickly categorize the application (yes, no, maybe?) and to be able to summarize the application in a few words or sentences. First impressions count for a lot, and the reader is not going to look at page #2 if a quick glance over page #1 didn't ring any bells. </p>
<p>There is a great story in The Gatekeepers about a kid who desperately wanted to get into Wesleyan and who submitted hundreds of pages of his poetry and writing, and dozens of recommendation letters from famous people, almost all of which was tossed aside unread. The kid did get in, but not because of his submissions -- rather it was because of an act of kindness that was mentioned by the g.c,, and was the one thing that really impressed the ad com. </p>
<p>And no, that doesn't prove the point that that the kid was right to throw everything he had at the school, not knowing which item would catch the attention of a sympathetic ad com -- the kid came very close to being rejected because the deluge of paperwork was offputting. </p>
<p>It doesn't matter whether it is a college app or a job submission or a marketing presentation: you have to put your best case up front. That's why there is just a teeny space on the form to list all activities: the ad coms want the nutshell version. An attached resume is an exhibit to support the precis -- it is where the ad com is going to come if they want more. </p>
<p>My son didn't have many EC's, so he filled up that little space by separating out and listing every activity separately. My daughter had lots of EC's, so she use that little space to summarize -- 4 years of dance & theater participation in one line, 4 years of different roles in student government in another, liberal with the abbreviations to make space. She attached a resume about the one part that was unique and important to her -- and she left some activities completely off. For example, she was in California Scholarship Federation (CSF) - the California equivalent of NHS -- and she just didn't mention it on most of her applications because she didn't have room. We didn't see it as particularly important because just about every college-bound student has that listed, and as far as I can tell, the main reason kids join CSF is they think it looks good on a college app. Maybe it does look good, but it doesn't look special - and my d. focused on the things that would make her application stand out from the group. The ad coms could look at her submission and easily answer the question, "what makes this applicant different from the rest?"</p>
<p>Calmom: comparing a student who attaches hundreds of pages to an app to those who have an extra page or two on a resume is simply ludicrous.
And of course, leaving out NHS makes complete sense, as it adds nothing to the picture of a high achieving student.
Read the examples of student accomplishments detailed by Soozievt, Tarhunt, or frankly, myself, that illustrate the need to go beyond a little common ap chart. (another example was the need for my son to explain his published research by sending in an abstract--not, mind you, the whole article, which would have been way too much). Sticking to the arbitrary notion of a one page resume, when it means leaving out significant accomplishments, is, in my view, simply poor judgement.</p>
<p>The point is that no one is looking beyond the first page unless it is clear on the first page why they would want to. Hence my use of the word "exhibit". You are dealing with people who are going to make a decision within the time frame of about a 5 minute scan as to whether to read further. They have no other way to deal with the volume that comes before them -- they scan first and IF something on the surface piques their interest AND the information on the surface gives them the sense that they are dealing with a candidate who is in the ballpark for what they want, THEN they may read further. If they know what they are looking for and where they will find it, it helps tremendously. </p>
<p>It is not a detail oriented task. It would be nice if it were, but with the volume of applications coming in, the human beings whose job it is to read them simply do not have the time or the patience to take that approach. They might early on, at the beginning of the ED/EA period -- then they are fresh and energetic and enthusiastic. But in late February when they are under the gun to make decisions - you are getting speed readers. It may make you feel better that nothing was left out of the resume, but that doesn't mean that anyone ever looked past the first page.</p>
<p>I also see no comparison between sending in papers you have written ala the case in The Gatekeepers and sending in an organized activity list. They actually are asking for the activities. They aren't asking for the papers. Colleges we have contacted said the activity resumes were FINE to send in. As far as number of pages...I don't agree that one would only look at the first page. I think if I were in a hurry and scanning the resume, I wouldn't just look at the first page, I'd skim the document. If the document is created as I advise students, it is skimmable because of the boldface entries and outlining and organization by categories. Maybe I'd skip the annotations if in a hurry. However, if you read the Gatekeepers, selective schools look beyond the numbers and at these other "elements" that set kids apart from one another when they all have the basic stats to get in. In that book, the adcoms were discussing kids in great detail and I got the impression that they spent more than five minutes going over kids they were considering. Nobody is going to read the resume if the other basics are not in the running but once past that, I do think they read the essays and look over these documents. As I said, NYU/Tisch selected my daughter as a Tisch Scholar that had to have involved reading the activity resume because the things they were looking for were on that and actually NOT on the first page either! (again, we had never heard of Tisch Scholars until she got it so the resume was never aimed at that) The recs touched on it but the "it" was more on the resume. In the Gatekeepers, I read about the adcoms making a case for the candidates in the committee meetings and describing the student, and not just their stats. I think the resume, when combined with essays, allows the student to market what they are all about, which is precisely what I read the adcoms discussing...not who had a 1500 vs. a 1450. </p>
<p>By the way, one of the principal counselors with whom I work at College Confidential, who advises an annotated resume, is Sally Rubenstone. Sally was an adcom at Smith for years. She obviously has read and deliberated over many candidates files on her own and in committees and she is advising candidates to create these documents. She advises that the annotations are often needed to explain what an award means or what an organization does, etc. She even suggests using humor to make an entry on a resume come alive. Also, sometimes context is needed. If it is something zillions of kids are selected for, it is not the same as being one out of 1000 kids selected for whatever it is. If a student has been involved in an endeavor for ten years, that is something to note which can't be noted on the activity chart, for instance. The level of commitment is important to show and can't always come across on that little chart. Sally would say that kids do a dissservice to themselves to NOT show what they have achieved. If a school insists you use their form, use it but still attach a resume. She has told me that adcoms DO like resumes. She ought to know as she was an adcom. </p>
<p>I understand the various opinions being offered here and welcome them very much. I think readers should know that college counselors, including myself and others at CC, AND other known ones who have written books on preparing effective applications, do suggest Activity/Award resumes. I have all my clients prepare one. Some have two pages, some have three. It all depends on the kid. The length is not the goal. We edit it down down down but each kid is different and so it varies. I would not go over three pages, however. As DoneMom and I have noted, many of these students who create such documents ARE getting into very selective schools, including our own kids. I truly believe the adcoms had a clear picture of who they were and the resume was ONE important piece but not the only piece. I do NOT see it as a true "extra" as it is information that is being asked for anyway. The example from The Gatekeepers is not a good comparison as it was totally extra and overkill and nobody has time to read that kind of stuff. A resume is also something that can be scanned if needed. One thing that I was impressed by in the Gatekeepers was observing that adcoms really do take time to read the applications, essays, recs, and resumes at schools such as Wesleyan. I imagine they have to as the majority of candidates who apply have the stats. Those who don't have the stats, well then, no, they don't take the time to read their resumes and essays. When they are deliberating between kids, you can bet that they are no longer discussing GPA and SAT score comparisons but more these other qualities about a student and therefore, a student needs to know how to market their "goods".</p>
<p>In this context, here's a link to an interesting article from The Crimson on Harvard's admissions process. I think one gets the sense that applications are reviewed quite carefully:</p>
<p>Calmom and I are clearly the cynics here... perhaps the 3 page activity sheet/ resumes are a good way for parents to feel that their kids are getting their money's worth from private college counselors, since that seems to be the source of the advice.</p>
<p>In the real world, people learn how to edit.</p>
<p>My kids did just fine without private college counselors, and no, this wasn't to justify my years of "car-pooling" to activities, and no, this wasn't just a "laundry list" of random stuff, and judging from the writing competition my son just won at Harvard, I think he knows how to edit. It would be great to have this discussion without the not-so-subtle put-downs.</p>
<p>Ditto Donemom. And see Soozie's post #31.</p>
<p>Let me throw in my cynical hat. I'm sure those long resumes didn't hurt those students. I'm equally sure they're not the reason they got in.</p>
<p>Do we really think that admissions people are so dumb that they hand out applications that don't let them know who really to admit? And that the kids who do the resumes are chosen over equally qualified students for not following the instructions? I really hope not.</p>
<p>Mine got into very good schools without resumes. They, in their naivete, assumed that answering what the schools asked for would not be shooting themselves in their respective feet, and lo and behold, they were right.</p>
<p>But, hey, if you and your kids have all that extra time on your hands, why not? :)</p>
<p>After fiddling with the common application for a bit, I find the space allocated on for the ECs, Academic Awards, and Non-Academic Award Section(supplement) of the application to be limiting. For example, I am able to list that I attained a Rotary Youth Leadership Award for my participation in Interact, but this does nothing for the adcoms who have no idea what it is. (see <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/electrikstuff/ECsandAcademicAwardsSample.bmp%5B/url%5D">http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/electrikstuff/ECsandAcademicAwardsSample.bmp</a>) Also, I have enough space to list that I won 2nd place at the Science and Engineering Fair of Metro Detroit, yet I am not able to explain what that project was. (see <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/electrikstuff/NonAcademicAwardSample.bmp%5B/url%5D">http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/electrikstuff/NonAcademicAwardSample.bmp</a>) How do I go about this? Do I follow the current format I have used and put "See attached resume." at the bottom? There is so much I need to elaborate on (BPA Website Team, Hugh O'Brien Leadership Award, the fact that my 2nd place project at SEFMD's abstract was published in a book by Villanova, etc), all stuff that I cannot fit into the space provided - especially when using the writable applications.</p>
<p>Please bear with me; the images are very large and my server is not known for its speed.</p>
<p>Quote: "And that the kids who do the resumes are chosen over equally qualified students for not following the instructions?"</p>
<p>Another distortion.
Attaching a resume,(of any length) is not "not following instructions". The schools where my kids used one gave no instructions either way. In the case of Stanford, which specifically states that they do not want ANYTHING extra, of course, my son did not use one. But that was the case where tons of time was taken up, using a typewriter and lots of creativity to squeeze as much as possible of the important stuff in. And frankly, what we came up with seemed harder to follow than the three page resume that could be easily skimmed.</p>
<p>And a final reference to one of soozievt's points: interviewers definitely seem to like them. Both my kids offered theirs at the outset, and the interviewers in each case readily used them as jumping off points for discussion (and, I bet, as a reference when doing their write-ups afterwards). Also, essential to give one to the gc and teachers doing the recs, IMO. (yes, I know, this last point is totally different from the issue of using a resume as part of the ap).</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>We cannot know exactly why some applicants are admitted over others, not even why our own kids got admitted. So we cannot assume that your kids got admitted because they did not submit a resume, just as we cannot assume that Donemom's kid and mine got in because they submitted one.<br>
Much depends on what is in the resume, after all. </p>
<p>I would not suggest using a resume to regurgitate information that can easily be provided or inferred from other information. For example, if someone made it to a national competition, there's no point listing minor district level competitions on the way to that national.
S2 did not even bother applying for NHS since he was applying for college before the NHS election were to be held; but had he gotten in, it would have been too insignificant an honor for him to list.<br>
However, his list of college courses needed to be elaborated. Math 101 means something different in some colleges than in others (in his case, it meant something quite quite different from "introductory." So, not only did he list the courses, he provided a catalog description.
And he listed some fairly "minor" awards and activities outside his primary interest because he wanted to show that he was a bit better rounded than might appear from a mere list of major awards.</p>
<p>I crossposted with Donemom.</p>
<p>My S also applied to Stenford. He sent a resume with list of college courses he'd taken and catalog description of these courses. After he got in EA to Harvard, he tried to withdraw several times from Stanford, but apparently unsuccessfully. He got admitted and received recruiting letters and emails from both the adcom and the math department, even birthday greetings! Clearly, in his case, not following the rules had not done him any harm.</p>