Resumes: To Submit or Not to Submit?

Parent Cafe
41

<p>True, Donemom. My S's school discouraged but did not prohibit; I think that's a pretty standard route. My D's was neutral. They both took the point of view that the schools know what they want to know when they construct the applications (didn't use common app). And both tend to be very self-effacing--just didn't think there was anymore that needed to be said.</p>

<p>I still think they are not the reasons kid who get in get in.</p>

<p>As far as interviews, that's an entirely different story; you're not at that point attaching them to the application. I don't think they're anymore necessary there, either. In my kids's cases, they just talked, and had really wonderful discussions, according to both kids and interviewers. But i can see they could be used as a conversation starter, if needed.</p>

42

<p>Marite--I wouldn't have thought it would do him harm. I think a list of college courses taken would not be considered by most to be a resume, though I'm surprised he couldn't simply have Harvard send a transcript.</p>

43

<p>Quote from Marite: "And he listed some fairly "minor" awards and activities outside his primary interest because he wanted to show that he was a bit better rounded than might appear from a mere list of major awards."</p>

<p>Very important to do, I believe. Harvard probably loved the fact that in addition to his extraordinary math ability, he has a range of other interests and accomplishments. Makes the major stuff seem even more exceptional.</p>

44

<p>I don't think there is any right or wrong to this question. My son had a two page annotated activity list which he managed to whittle down to (in my opinion) an incredibly formatted single annotated page. It did not reiterate the listings on the common app (or other apps.) He was accepted to ten terrific schools.</p>

<p>My daughter had the shortest resume I had ever seen, if you could call it that. In fact, it was a "see attached" page of the common app. Her reasoning ... she wanted everything together, clear, concise. I didn't agree but it was the way she wanted to present herself. I backed off.</p>

<p>The resume/activity list is just one part of the package. Both of my kids included supplemental materials with a note explaining the significance of the materials and why they were relevent to potential admission to that particular school. </p>

<p>Many apps (I don't recall if the common app is included in this) asked for a paragraph about the student's most significant activity and why it was most significant. I believe that was a crucial part of the application too.
My daughter was accepted by Harvard with her cryptic activity list. Donemom's son got in with his well-thought out three page resume. There is no formula. Each applicant needs to think about how they best want to represent himself.</p>

<p>As an aside, at the Accepted Students Weekend at Harvard, my daughter and I sat down and spoke to her regional admissions officer. We joked around and asked if the supplements that she included were a large part of why she was admitted. He just laughed and said something to the effect of ... you did so many things - you were so involved ... it was clear you cared about what you did.<br>
My daughter got a nice "I told you so, Mom" out of that one. Her cryptic activity list didn't hurt. I'll shut up next time around!</p>

45

<p>Garland:</p>

<p>In fact, he did have the Extension School send a transcript as required for college courses, even to the College. Some courses, however, he audited since they were College classes; so there was no transcript and his grades were converted to Pass on his high school transcript which listed them as independent study. </p>

<p>Donemom: I'm not sure the minor things made the "major" things look more exceptional. But I do think they made him look like he is not a one-note Joe and that he would not be holed up in his dorm room doing problem sets from dawn to dusk.</p>

46

<p>Marite,
My daughter was also very careful not to appear one-dimensional. The way she did this was through her essay - which was about a topic which was totally different (and non-academic) than anything else in her application.</p>

<p>Oh ... I also thought that her essay was incredibly poignant but perhaps not a "college application" essay. This was based on several years of reading CC, Harry Bauld's book, etc. Go figure.</p>

47

<p>Twinmom:</p>

<p>My S also deliberately wrote one of his essays about something unrelated to math/science and the other about the trials and tribulations of doing a project for a very minor competition.<br>
I think that in the case of your D, judging, of course, from what you posted, the supplementary materials obviated the need for a multi-page cv, and the adrep was able to judge from them how many activities she had and the depth of her commitment.
Again, there is no really right or wrong way to present oneself. Your D and my S appear to have adopted a very different approach from the one preconized by interesteddad, which he dubbed "the one-trick pony" approach. And they all got into their top choice schools!</p>

48

<p>"I would not suggest using a resume to regurgitate information that can easily be provided or inferred from other information. For example, if someone made it to a national competition, there's no point listing minor district level competitions on the way to that national. "</p>

<p>Question:</p>

<p>My son has won medals in three or four different events (1st and 2nd place) at the regional level of Science Olympiad, but only 4th and 5th place both in Physics Lab at state level. I lean towards listing regional awards too. What do you all think?</p>

49

<p>If the events were not in Physics, then I would list them, to show his range of interests.</p>

50

<p>As a former Science Olympian, I would list all of the medals. Students compete in several different events and can succeed in some on the regional level and some on the state level (or, as I was so very fortunate, national level). </p>

<p>My thoughts on the poetry/art issue. As an alumna interviewer, I once had a student who brought in an abstract and artwork for a project that he had spent most of his senior year working on. He also let me keep it. That was great - it showed that he came prepared and was something that I could read over in about 10 minutes and discuss in my interview report. If your kid is a phenomenal poet or artist, I would suggest that they bring a short poem or a piece of artwork that somehow ties into their ECs to the interview. (Not that this precludes sending in a portfolio, obviously, but many students do ECs but want to do other things in college.) I'll happily read over a poem or look at an abstract or whatever so I can get to know the kid. </p>

<p>Like admissions people, though, I am not going to plow through a volume of poetry, a novel, or an entire portfolio of art: limit to something that the (very busy) interviewers can digest in less than ten minutes. Think of it like chocolate after a four-course meal: one or two pieces is enough to satisfy you and give you a taste; too much and it's intellectual indigestion.</p>

51

<p>As far as following directions, we called every school on D1's list and asked if this was OK and all said YES. As well, several of my kids' apps said right ON the app, to please fill out the activity chart even if attaching a resume. They didn't write, "don't attach a resume." The app was acknowledging a resume might be sent. In the case of Brown, it isn't a little chart and the two blank pages given can be done as a resume anyway and so why not send that to the other schools. </p>

<p>I agree with Marite that it isn't like the resumes got them in and those who didn't include one were kept out. Obviously there are cases right here on this thread of kids who got into selective schools without a resume and kids who got in with one. We don't know what got them in. I don't think my kids' resumes got them in. What I do know is that the little chart on the app did not truly show what they had done. It simply did not allow for that. ECs were a big part of their lives and both had done a lot of things for years. Each of those things could not be adequately explained in 3-4 words allowed in a little box on a chart. They still did the charts. As I have said, when some students give me a list of what they have done, I have no context or idea of what many of the things are without an explanation. Some use initials for things I haven't heard of or I simply haven't heard of the actvity and I certainly don't have a clue what the award was for. The resume allows for that. Perhaps some kids have activities that are so clear cut that the chart is adequate. That's fine, I understand. </p>

<p>The point here isn't so much to do a resume or not. The overriding issue is that an applicant needs to brainstorm what about themselves they wish the adcoms to know. Traits, attributes, qualities, interests, etc. They should plug what they wish to show into different pieces of the application....use the resume to show certain things, and the essays to show other things. Twinmom's child sent in a supplemental material, so used that to show something, and not so much an annotated resume. The bottom line is that she got a message across as to who she was as a person. What she used to show this could be a different method or piece. The resume is along the lines of what is asked for...they do ask your activities, the time devoted to them, and the role you played in them. A resume is just an organized document that can fully show what they were asking for in the first place. It is not additional things that they never asked about. </p>

<p>It isn't like my kids did this "extra work" for the applications. Yes, they sent it with each app. However, they prepared this in September of senior year with an individualized cover letterto each rec writer and the GC and sent the resume with it and so those people had what was in their letter and the annotated list as a resource, but of course also knew them well. Then, they did give each interviewer their resumes. Both are very very comfortable and talkative in an interview and used their interview to get across things they wished to show about themselves. The resume can be a jump off point for some interviewers. But also, by providing a resume, the interview doesn't have to spend time on regurgitating all their activities and accomplishments (all of which I do ask about when I interview students myself) and they can discuss more and then the interviewer is left with an outline of all their ECs and achievements which is helpful to have when writing a narrative report. I'd LOVE to have this from every kid I interviewed but only about two have ever provided me with one. It was a help. It was also more impressive to have on paper in an organized way and is afterall, what one does in a work interview also. I am impressed, don't worry, by kids without resumes, too! </p>

<p>People don't need to do a resume if they feel the application shows all they wish or need to show. The main thing is to use application materials to market who you are. If you can do that on the little charts alone, fine. I know when I read my own kids' resumes and those of my clients, I have a MUCH MUCH better picture of who they are and what they have done and achieved than I do by reading the little charts they also prepared on their applications. As well, they didn't HAVE to use their essays to push their EC endeavors and could use these for other points about themselves because these other things were covered and shown well on the resume. My D did not write an essay on her most meaningful EC (she is extremely the well rounded sort and if push came to shove, would likely call ski racing her biggest passion but never wrote an essay about it...her essays drove home other points about herself).</p>

52

<p>Cover letters are a huge help when submitting an application. You should include a list of enclosures and tell them why this is all being submitted; if you do that, I think you'll organise yourself enough to avoid the overkill issues.</p>

53

<p>Don't get me wrong, both of my kids did have resumes, albeit with different approaches. And both were annotated ... using brevity to different degrees. And both of my kids brought their resumes (if you could call my daughter's that) with them to interviews - along with their supplementary materials for the interviewer to peruse - just as Aries said.</p>

<p>One note of caution. My kids had their social security numbers on the resumes that they sent out with their applications. On the way out the door to interviews, they would often print out copies to bring along. I had to remind them periodically to be sure they took the socials off of the resumes that they brought to interviews. Those shouldn't be floating around.</p>

<p>Also, both kids had another person proofread for grammar and typos. As we all know, it's difficult to spot your own errors.</p>

54

<p>Aries, when I read the word cover letter, I couldn't help but remember a poster named Morgantruce. When I joined CC, I found his advice illuminating, funny, and sometimes controversial. One of his favorite subjects was the lack of use of cover letters. </p>

<p>It is undeniable that a well crafter cover letter could be a wonderful tool to tie everything together and provide the adcom a roadmap to the contents. However, there is a caveat: we really do not know if cover letters even make it in the reading folders. My speculative opinion is that adcoms NEVER see the opus! Do I have proof? Absolutely not! I beleive, however, in the simple logistics that would dictate that unimportant pieces of paper are processed by technicians, collated, scanned, and otherwise swallowed in a gigantic vacuum towards a simple common denominator: the reading folder. Why would cover letters -could be more than one- be kept in the final folder. I truly believe that cover letters join the envelopes in the ... trash compactor.</p>

<p>As a final note, I do not think that there are two camps in this discussion -the one versus three pages. I believe that everyone recognizes that the MOST important should be listed and that sufficient details should be provided for an adcom to understand the background. For some, this will not exceed the space provided -especially in online applications. For others, it may take all of 3 pages to disclose the same information. I also believe that we all agree that the attachment, be 1 or 3 pages, should not include information that is already on the application since the attachment is NOT to be used as a stand alone document. Hence, no repeat of GPA, test scores, or similar data. </p>

<p>Would an adcom read past the first page? It all depends of the quality of the information shared. I'd have to speculate that a frst page filled with INTERESTING and COMPELLING information will force an adcom to go on and discover more about the candidate. On the other hand, an insipid "laundry list" of minor achievement will probably yield a yawn. This is no different from deciding to write a lengthier essay. An essay that grabs the reader attention and ... nver lets go will work. The standard essay we get to read on CC should probably fit on 1/2 page. </p>

<p>In the end, it all comes to the individual. </p>

<p>PS I am still waiting for the day that the Queen Katherine of admissions starts sending portable computers -for adcoms to keep- with the complete profile of her students, and this with or without borrowed material. In 2010, we may be discussing the need to send that 30 minute interactive video or not. Obviously, if any of us is still around arguing and arguing. :)</p>

55

<p>"Your D and my S appear to have adopted a very different approach from the one preconized by interesteddad, which he dubbed "the one-trick pony" approach. And they all got into their top choice schools!"</p>

<p>Marite: I don't remember InterestedDad calling it that ... but I do recall him saying that if the adcom identifies you as the tuba playing goat farmer or such you may stick out in someone's mind. I don't think that my daughter was identifiable in that way (the other approach worked for her as for your son) but my son was. Again ... that could work for some individuals - but as always, the whole package represents the applicant.</p>

<p>"Both are very very comfortable and talkative in an interview and used their interview to get across things they wished to show about themselves."</p>

<p>Soozie: My son is that way. It took my daughter a few interviews to get the hang of that. Unfortunately, her Harvard interview was her first one, since she applied early. She came home very unhappy, feeling that she had blown it. Again, when we met with her admissions officer at the Accepted Students weekend, he mentioned her interview. She looked startled, and he immediately picked up on that, asking her how she thought it had gone. She said (as it didn't matter at that point - she was in!) that it hadn't gone well at all. Again he laughed, telling her that she was wrong. He said that he's always surprised at how often applicants think that their interviews went terribly - when in fact the interviewers were most impressed.</p>

<p>All in all, I guess those adcoms know exactly what they are looking for (though I can certainly disagree with a few who I'd love to speak to but never will ... there were schools we were fairly surprised that both of our kids did not get into) and they know how to weed through the applications to get to the crux of who the applicant is. I totally agree with Soozie's wisdom ...</p>

<p>"The point here isn't so much to do a resume or not. The overriding issue is that an applicant needs to brainstorm what about themselves they wish the adcoms to know. Traits, attributes, qualities, interests, etc. They should plug what they wish to show into different pieces of the application....use the resume to show certain things, and the essays to show other things. "</p>

56

<p>Xiggi - I actually agree with you. :)</p>

<p>One caveat though ... Harvard admissions officers explicitly say that they will read anything and everything that the applicant submits no matter how lengthy - and I do believe them!</p>

57

<p>On the issue of interviewers, I would NOT base any conclusion on how well a r</p>

58

<p>


</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=1524309%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=1524309&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

59

<p>Xiggi,</p>

<p>I well remember MorganTruce. He did say that his Ds submitted all of their material months in advance, then called up two weeks after sending it to ensure that it had all been received. </p>

<p>Some of the reason that I hang around the boards is to retain some familiarity with the college admissions process and my alma mater. I've often asked, but few people have responded, if there are ways to improve interviews, things to do, things to not do, etc. </p>

<p>I had a horrific interview for law school, by the way.</p>

<p>One of the big downfalls of the interviewing process is that very few interviewers know how the school evaluates its applicants. My alma mater told us a few years ago (if we went to a conference and signed up for a particular panel) how they evaluate applicants... but there were probably less than 100 of us there, out of thousands of alum interviewers.</p>

60

<p>Thanks Xiggi. And it may have been TheDad who talked about the other approach (tuba playing goat farmer - not his words exactly - probably thinking of Mudge) - also, the "most meaningful activity" was the paragraph I was referring to earlier.</p>