<p>Oh sorry MomofWildChild, law just seemed boring to me, from my little exposure to it. From all the things I know much of BigLaw seems to be concentrated on corporate matters that just don’t appeal to me.</p>
<p>Big Law is just a small portion of law. It would be boring to me, too.</p>
<p>I stick by my original thought, which is paying through the nose (especially when you don’t have it!) is NOT worth it when it comes to an elite college. </p>
<p>Sorry, I still don’t see the “finishing school” benefits. Some of the more gracious (and successful) people I know are from no-name or lower level public schools. And indeed I spent years in an IB rubbing shoulders with lots of Ivy grads. Maybe it’s the industry, but I didn’t walk away with a positive impression, unless boorish, self absorbed, obsessive behavior is considered virtuous in some way. No doubt, these folks were SMART and well-schooled. But something important was missing. My friend in the business used to say “this place doesn’t have a soul.” Looking back, I have to agree…and with all that’s happened recently, it really rings true.<br>
I’m not dumping on Ivy grads here. My exposure was just slice…in a very specific industry. But I just didn’t see anything there that made me feel that these folks had an edge. Other than perhaps in making money…that’s it. And even that’s in question now (lots of those folks are now out of jobs).</p>
<p>Actually you don’t have to go to a top school to get into IB. One of my friends dad was an investment banker and I believe he was an immigrant and went to a local NYC school. There are ALOT of banking opportunities and you only need to go to a top school to get into the top banks if I am not mistaken. I bet Fordham would be a good school for a least a back office type job, and many less prestigious jobs often make alot of money my friends dad was pulling like 250K although he hated it.</p>
<p>I’m read most but not all of this thread. </p>
<p>The WSJ is looking at this from an economic perspective–it is, after all, the WSJ. There are other perspectives. </p>
<p>Moreover, not all “elite” schools are alike. Not all the Ivies are alike either. IMO, the quality of education among them varies a great deal. The quality of education even varies among departments at the same university.</p>
<p>The atmosphere or social scene or whatever you want to call it also varies among the elites. There are some where there is a lot of self-segregation based on race, religion and socioeconomic status. There are others where kids from different backgrounds interact with each other more. There are some elite schools at which there is a designated “in crowd” and others where there are a multitude of different social scenes with none being considered more prestigious than the rest. The amount of binge drinking varies a lot among top colleges; so does the amount of drug use. </p>
<p>More importantly, not all kids are alike. There are kids who are absolute geniuses in certain fields for whom it really is an educational necessity to go to a top college. There are kids like one I have who really need competition to do well. My kid is the hare in the tortoise and the hare story–or at least used to be. I am sure that if my kid (who is a good swimmer, but not good enough to make the varsity in college) were to suddenly be thrust into the Olympics, kid would come in dead last–but set a personal best time. </p>
<p>There are kids who will hide their light under a basket to “fit in.” I used to joke that my kid would rank at the 75th percentile at the class at the local CC or MIT. That’s the “level” at which my kid felt comfortable. That wasn’t just true in academics–it tended to be true in everything–sports, music, you name it, my kid would be “above average” but not the best. If kid was put into a more competitive group, kid’s achievement level would rise; if put into a less competitive group, kid would slack off. </p>
<p>Something that really stunned me was the support of ECs and outside of the classroom academics. If you wanted to do something worthwhile, there was almost always someone who knew how to do it and some way to fund it. There was just a remarkable attitude that if you wanted to do something, you could figure out a way to do it. Nobody ever seem to say that’s just not possible. </p>
<p>The emphasis on ECs is different too. At many large state Us, only a small fraction of the student body participates in any ECs. The one exception, at some schools, is Greek life. The ECs that exist often require near-professional excellence to participate. For example, many flagship state Us have really excellent marching bands, but you have to be a VERY good musician to get accepted. There is at least one large state U at which only journalism majors can work on the campus daily. </p>
<p>At some of the Ivies, it’s rare to meet a student who ISN"T involved in ECs. A lot of these schools have all sorts of actvities in any given field, catering to different degrees of expertise and commitment. There are often dozens of different student publications, for example. In my own kid’s case, ECs were more important than academics in terms of figuring out what kid wanted to do for a living and in terms of making friends.( That’s not to say academics weren’t important; they were.)</p>
<p>It’s a personal choice and there’s no one fits all right answer. However, IMO how much graduates of elites and non-elites earn shouldn’t be the measure of whether it’s “worth it.”</p>
<p>quote:</p>
<p>Actually you don’t have to go to a top school to get into IB. One of my friends dad was an investment banker and I believe he was an immigrant and went to a local NYC school. There are ALOT of banking opportunities and you only need to go to a top school to get into the top banks if I am not mistaken. I bet Fordham would be a good school for a least a back office type job, and many less prestigious jobs often make alot of money my friends dad was pulling like 250K although he hated it.</p>
<p>Unquote:</p>
<p>If somebody at forties and older is making $250K in the iBanking, it’s a bottom of the barrel kind of a position. In my industry (high tech), well respected middle managers in their forties could reasonably make that kind of money without attaining an executive rank. Are you sure it’s really a iBank job? Perhaps, an admin/clerical area in the iBankin firm (a big difference). When I was doing a company paid executive MBA, there was am iBanking kid (about 26 years old) who was attending the program on company dime, while pulling down in the vicinity of $600K, and that was more than 10 years ago, not even during the hey day (in fact the industry was going through major down sizing then). By all indications thus far based on my search, prestigious iBanking jobs are much, much easier to get if you come out of a top flight private universities. Some insiders told that they don’t even recruit from public schools. So, if you go to a big state U, you could still “infiltrate” their world, but you are disadvantaged big time.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you have a CS degree from University of Illinois Champaign Urbana, you will have no problem competing for the very best jobs in your field. </p>
<p>So, whether the top flight elite universities are worth or not depends on the kid and the future plans.</p>
<p>As for me, I am paying full sticker price for my son not only for the Wall Street reason (my son’s first priority, but a distant secondary priority for me), but more importantly for the intellectual rigor that schools is so famed for. He is an extraordinarily gifted young man. I want him in a place where he will be operating at maximum capacity. I want my son to be truly well educated in the classical sense - like famed Renaissance men. I want my son to go a place where they put a hefty premium on the rigorous intellectual education more than anything else and where he will be surrounded by his peers who value this on the average more than any other average student body in other schools would. No public school that I know of meet this last criterion, and hence my decision to let him turn down a full ride offer from a very good public school. AND, all this was done not because we have ton of money just stashed away all over the place. We are doing this by cutting all the excess fat we can possibly think of. This is where I would rather spend my money. The fact that we saved so assiduously all these years by cutting out all the frivolous expenses and now are penalized in that we don’t get any financial aid is a sore point for us. </p>
<p>Everyone to his own. It’s interesting though while those of us who are paying exorbitant tuition for their children for whatever reason hardly ever goes into “how can you send your child to a mere public school” type of discussion, there is a good deal of semi judgmental attitudes from those who think public universities are great toward people like me. It reminds me of the cultural discussion/debate on stay home vs working mothers. In my days, there were lot stay home mothers who would go on and on about “how could you leave your child to the care of strangers”, yet no working mother dared to criticize the choice made by the working mothers. Interesting parallel??? I have a theory for this phenomenon, but that’s a side bar conversation.</p>
<p>I know a group of alumni from my state school who’ve already made it in the IB world have set up a program of internships and mentoring designed to help other people from the school to make it on Wall Street and so far they’ve had a pretty good record of success, especially for a young program. </p>
<p>And speaking of finishing school benefits, if you look for those kinds of opportunities at state schools there happen to be many, at least for top scholarship students and/or students in the honors program. We got to meet several former secretaries of state, scientists doing fascinating work, Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer prize winners, admirals and generals, a supreme court justice, and tons of politicians at every level. In fact, we often had extensive access to these figures, at least enough to engage in real conversations and not just a handshake/photo op. We had plenty of fancy dinners, receptions, etc. and even several etiquette seminars to help with that finishing school touch. </p>
<p>And while one example can’t be taken as anything more than an anecdote, when I’ve had the opportunity to interact with a number of people from more prestigious schools in reception-style environments, I’ve noticed that social awkwardness was actually higher amongst Ivy Leaguers compared to state schoolers.</p>
<p>My child also turned down a full ride to a state school, and several other impressive merit offers, to go to a “nerd school”, mainly because she wanted an atmosphere in which intellectual curiosity and rigor would be the default for the majority of students. We did visit schools that offered merit aid, and she often found that either they were not well-known for departments she was interested in, or the other students were not friendly or welcoming, or that they were involved mostly with their Greek organizations or with their sports teams. </p>
<p>We found out as much as we could about the types of internships and job offers that graduates were getting, and the graduate schools that accepted students, and while we found that it was possible to get anywhere she would want to go (she is interested in the natural sciences) from any of these schools, some offered a greater likelihood than others.</p>
<p>She did not immediately jump to the “prestigious” option, any more than she made her decision based solely on tuition cost, but attended classes and research fairs and talked with professors and current students. </p>
<p>We live a very modest lifestyle, and have not rushed to spend the modest inheritances we have gotten from our deceased parents, and consequently have too much in savings to qualify for need based aid, but probably not by very much. LOTS of people criticize our decision, although had my daughter been less-qualified academically and gotten need-based aid, as seems to be the case with many of her peers whose families have lived far more extravagantly than we have, the same people would have thought it a very smart move. Had she gone to our state school without applying elsewhere, most of these people would not have said anything. LOTS of people assume we are going for the “elite” degree, too, without regard to other factors, and that as a full-pay student she did not have to meet quite the same standards as other students. </p>
<p>This is becoming a sore point with us, too. We are envious of students in countries where tuition is lowest for the best-qualified students, who attend state schools.</p>
<p>I think whenever someone spends significant money on something it’s quite natural to want to affirm the attributed benefits. It’s just human nature. People are always second guessing themselves and measuring against their perceptions. It works the other way, too, if you buy the lesser option. There is always that wonder if it would have been “better” to have made a different decision. The concept of “finishing school” is just silly. It’s been decades and decades since any of those attributes would come into play at certain schools. For the most part those colleges are much more demographically/sociologically diverse these days. There are probably just as many smart, weathly, world travelled kids sitting in programs at state flagships as there are at the entire Ivy league and Tier 1 east coast LACs. Different strokes for different folks as the saying goes. No one really needs to “justify” their particular family choice in my humble opinion.</p>
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<p>There are many of us who did the same, went the private route and paid full fare because we saved. I had two kids in college simultaneously and still had to pay sticker. You’ve made a decision to pay , just don’t let it bother you that others got a discounted price. Just as I told my children, life is not about being fair.</p>
<p>Life is fair, life is just different.</p>
<p>Sometimes it seems that there is almost reverse discrimination here on CC, with people jumping over each other in their eagerness to talk about how boorish, entitled and spoiled the upper-tier private college kids are, and how the public college kids are the real entrepreneurs, free-thinkers and hard-workers bound for success…
Ahhh, well, whatever…
We chose private University for many reasons- lots of resources including many, many faculty for relatively few students, so many opportunities and programs to go around, a student body composed of bright and active people…</p>
<p>Returning to a former topic on this thread, I suggest that all of you find the annual budget of your school or schools of choice. </p>
<p>You will probably find that the “instructional” category/ies (or its equivalent) is where the school spends the most money. Obviously, there are great consequences of reducing this category. A school needs to attract and keep excellent instructors. A freshmen seminar of 20 is not the same of a freshman seminar of 30 or 40. An adjunct who only teaches one class and doesn’t have an office is going to be a lot harder to track down than a full time professor with office hours posted on her door. Another huge cost of employing people is health care. It’s not a school’s fault that health care costs so much, but it does what it can. </p>
<p>Another large category of the budget is financial aid. It may even be the second largest category at your school(s) of choice. Increasing the financial aid budget is a way to “off set” the increase in tuition. (If your school(s) of choice has/ have any sort of endowment and uses it for anything, then attendees are receiving some sort of subsidy no matter how much financial aid they otherwise receive). In a similar way, if your school(s) of choice is a public school, then the school(s) is/ are being subsidized by the government. </p>
<p>Schools are understandably leery to cut funds to the preceding expenditures in the long term. So what else can they do?</p>
<p>Another great expense to colleges is facilities. Yes, schools can wash the windows less (like Oberlin), but schools don’t want the ceiling to fall in either. If you’ve ever lived in an old home, you know what it costs to maintain the dag on thing when “everything’s falling apart.” (It’s hard to attract students too when the facilities are in poor condition). Don’t forget how much it takes to heat or cool these old buildings. </p>
<p>Schools these days have expenses, and student and parent expectations that didn’t exist in the past. Today there are support services for minority groups, the learning disabled, LGBT people, and those who are having difficulty adjusting to college. There are adults who live in dorms to plan events for college students. Students want to have access to really expensive academic databases. Back in the day, schools could outfit a class room with tables or desks, chalk, and a chalk board. These days to be up to date class rooms need electrical outlets for laptops, a projector for power points, top notch lab facilities, and maybe even a Smart Board. Schools must also buy hundreds to thousands of computers for the campus and pay for licensing fees for computer programs, and be on a technology replacement plan. In the 21st century schools cannot rely on the two computers that lived in a basement somewhere pre internet and microsoft word.</p>
<p>This is why higher education is so expensive! It’s expensive, but we have the best higher education system in the world. In the top 10 schools, according to here: [World’s</a> Best Colleges: Top 400 - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-colleges/2009/06/18/worlds-best-colleges-top-400.html]World’s”>http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/worlds-best-colleges/2009/06/18/worlds-best-colleges-top-400.html), the United States has 7 of them. The other top schools in the top 400 are distributed among many other countries besides the US. And no other country has liberal arts colleges, like the US.</p>
<p>So what are schools supposed to do? State legislators are slashing budgets, and schools’ endowments are decreasing. Public schools may be less expensive than privates, but on average their tuition is increasing at a greater rate. The cost of health care for all schools is going up. Schools like Harvard are eliminating hot breakfasts, while other schools are eliminating majors. If we want world class facilities, someone, some where is going to have to pay for it.</p>
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<p>Except for the inheritance part, I could have written this as we have the same situation.</p>
<p>In response to the criticism from other parents, we just tell people “this is what we planned for”. That way we don’t have to get into a lot of explaining.</p>
<p>student will be senior in college next year:</p>
<p>reu paid research for two summers with grad students and well respected phd’s in their field
published paper by sophomore year
summer of high paid internship at top worldwide company
some excellent teachers and an advisor who has known him by name since before he started college
EC that has taken him all over the country paid for by the university
EC that has allowed him national TV coverage and live audiences of over a million people by now
inducted into Phi Beta Kappa and other honor societies
able to take two very difficult and separate BS degrees</p>
<p>college experience brought to you by your state flagship…full ride</p>
<p>It is important for me to let others know that their student does not have to feel shortchanged if they choose not to go to the top schools for financial reasons. There are plenty of brilliant hard working kids at lots of schools that have great opportunities to offer</p>
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<p>This blows my mind. A) How do they even know what your financial circumstances are? and B) How is it possibly any of their business, whatsoever? It’s just not for them to criticize!</p>
<p>“We chose private University for many reasons- lots of resources including many, many faculty for relatively few students, so many opportunities and programs to go around, a student body composed of bright and active people…”</p>
<p>Making the choice that works for you is fine. I don’t think the “public school types” are bashing but perhaps reacting to the assumption that you can’t get resources, opportunities and a bright peer group at a public U. And you can. The choice might not be right for everyone…but don’t dismiss or deny the fact that there are opportunities… lots of them.<br>
My s is in a quality honors program and is surrounded by high achieving types (like “son of Sax!”). He is not as much a go-getter (such a high bar!) but has done very well for himself, has strong relationships with a few key professors, solid ECs, membership in top honor societies, a semester abroad, and a paid teaching assistant position as he enters his senior year. Plus he’s having lots of fun and will graduate with zero debt! All good things.
I think most of us are supportive of other choices. The original question though, was, is an elite education worth it? If money is tight, maybe not. But everyone has a right to make the sacrifices they think are right for them. For those shelling out huge amounts of cash, it might help to see the other choices they turned down as inferior…just human nature. But who really knows? All you know is whether or not your kid is doing OK in the current environment. And those of us who can say yes are quite fortunate I think.</p>
<p>Agree with Pizza, even with our friends that are BFF my husband and I would not “know” enough about their financial situation to make a judgement call about how little or how much they are “paying” for their kids’ college nor would we be so rude to “pass judgement” on whatever decisions were made --even as “pillow talk.” As a group, we are just happy for the success of our group’s “offspring” wherever they land. Shoot, as a group we’re more focused on making sure we all can retire and preserve capital in this crap economy than to worry about where each others’ kids are going to college.</p>
<p>toneranger: Good for your son. I liked your post.</p>
<p>Can honestly say I really just don’t know the answer - we pay full freight for a very elite school and I have no idea if it was the right decision. Ask me in ten years or so?</p>