<p>Nice summary toneranger. I think you said clearly what many have been trying to say, including myself.</p>
<p>what is UVM ?</p>
<p>I’m intrigued more by the “other people are critical,” to the point above that “even with our friends that are BFF my husband and I would not “know” enough about their financial situation to make a judgement call about how little or how much they are “paying” for their kids’ college nor would we be so rude to “pass judgement” on whatever decisions were made --even as “pillow talk.””</p>
<p>Can you give me a context in which this comes up in which anyone is even making any comments on how you spend your finances? I mean, it’s one thing to debate online with anonymous strangers. It is quite another thing to be face-to-face with someone and tell that person you think she is spending her money incorrectly or unwisely. What do these conversations look like?</p>
<p>
May I interject a circumstance under which I actually made a comment to a friend? </p>
<p>Their son was accepted at a very good private school (not Ivy) and didn’t receive a penny of merit or need-based aid at a school in the $50K range. I know from other experience that the school is often generous with merit money for kids in the top of the pool. He clearly wasn’t one of them. However, he did get money at other good schools and a state school, including an invitation to an honors program. The wife is the sole breadwinner as the husband in this family chooses not to work, they are in the $75k range (she has a job with a salary that is public). They have another child coming up quickly, and we have been so close for so long that they are family to us. When she took out a mortgage on her house for the first year, I felt I wouldn’t be a good friend if I didn’t gently remind her that there were three more years to come and no further equity to tap. Then I minded my own business. I am sad to see them scrambling this year for financing. It’s tough to watch, but I hope something works out.</p>
<p>People make comments all the time. Siblings may decide to get together to give the grandparents a lavish 50th anniversary party.</p>
<p>Me- perhaps we could have it at our house? We’d be happy to provide the food and the venue if you guys want to think up the entertainment and decorations.</p>
<p>Sister-in-law- well if you guys hadn’t “blown it all” on tuition, you wouldn’t try to get off cheap and you’d be ok having it at the hotel we’ve already picked out.</p>
<p>Or I’m getting an estimate on getting the roof fixed so I call the guy across the street who just had it done to see if he was happy with the roofer.</p>
<p>Me- I’m going to get three estimates- I just want to make sure you were happy with XYZ roofing and felt you got good value.</p>
<p>Neighbors- Hey, we don’t nickel and dime on this stuff like you guys. You’re the big spenders when it comes to fancy college and all, but I know you wouldn’t go for our contractor since he was pretty pricey.</p>
<p>I don’t take it personally and I don’t care what other people think about my own priorities… but people make comments all the time (even inadvertently) about how other people spend their money. It’s a free country, that’s my attitude.</p>
<p>I also had a friend tell me outright that I was nuts to spend money on MIT since "our state school has an engineering program and he’d be closer to home and you’d get to see him more plus you’d finally get to replace that awful kitchen if you weren’t spending all your money on college. " I thanked her profusely for her financial planning advice.</p>
<p>Blossom, that’s astounding. It’s one thing to think it, it’s another to actually say it out loud.</p>
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<p>Ugh. I feel for you!</p>
<p>I personally don’t care for how my SIL / BIL, who are extremely well-to-do, pursued athletic scholarships for their daughters, when I think it’s one big shell game (only well-to-do parents could afford the pricey coaches, the frequent trips to out of town tournaments, the need for one parent to be at home fulltime, the cost of help to watch the younger children - so they spent $200K to get scholarships worth $200K). It goes against my value system, completely. But I don’t think it’s for me to tell them directly!</p>
<p>I do agree that friends / family can make bothersome, personal and annoying comments though - no shortage of that!!</p>
<p>I don’t think friends tell friends that their kitchens are awful!</p>
<p>Pizzagirl asked what these conversations look like.</p>
<p>What do these conversations look like? Well, they pop up in all sorts of contexts in our Northeast community, where college admissions has become a great spectator sport. They actually do not look so different from conversations on this forum, although nobody is anonymous. </p>
<p>But all sorts of people in our community are interested in questions of whether an elite degree is worth the money (or not), and it is next to impossible to come by honest assessments. So, parents make inferences. Sometimes it is easier to find out in real life whether the success story from the state honors college (EVERY program seems to have a success story)is typical or not, for instance, or whether the student from any school who got a great internship got it through contacts made at the school or through family contacts. And of course, as tuition and salaries have gotten more and more out of line with upper middle-class incomes and expected starting salaries in many fields requiring a college degree, the numbers of graduates greatly exceed available jobs in many fields, it has become next to impossible to predict where the job opportunities will be in four or five years, and we have moved to a “winner take all” society, anxiety has risen and people seem to have lost their embarrassment at asking these things.</p>
<p>Most of our relatives do have a very good idea of how much money we would have, and how much we inherited. In our relatively closed community, most people who know where we work also have a pretty good idea of how much money has been coming in. We do not live out in the woods, and many can also make pretty good guesses of how much money is going out, too. It is not too hard to guess that we are not in the income class where tuition is not a hardship at all. </p>
<p>Quite a few think it is stupid to spend money on college educations when state school could be free and do not hesitate to tell us this when they talk about how wonderfully well their own child is doing at a state school, adding that their child could have gone IVY. Others tell us that they would not think of sending their child to a state school, but are surprised that OUR daughter did not get financial aid. (Didn’t she have a sport? What were her grades and test scores?)And still others tell us that the only reason they have chosen an elite school was the financial aid involved - but, then again, their child had great qualifications that the elite school could not ignore. (Was our child below the median in grades and test scores or something? Was she a legacy?)</p>
<p>The conversation usually begins when someone asks where my child has applied or, upon hearing that she got accepted at an elite college, how we are going to pay for this. </p>
<p>Teachers and guidance counselors at the high school have also been interested. I do not mind this so much, as these questions are followed up by questions about the schools we have visited and what we have found out about these schools. </p>
<p>Children ALSO exchange information about where they are applying, where they are accepted, and how they are paying, and this information does not remain confidential. It goes to parents, and what other parents have said has a way of getting back.</p>
<p>And, most surprisingly, people I hardly know want to know where my child has applied, where she has been accepted, and where she has gotten financial aid. I expect in a few years, judging from the talk of parents with slightly older children, the gossip will move on to whose child is working where, how they got the job, and whether or not they “deserved” it.</p>
<p>BTW, anyone who is interested could ALSO do a good story in our town on why students might pass up a free ride to pay full tuition or take out loans to attend an elite school. That seems to be a big story in our town in this economy and this state, where state schools seem to be cutting programs, courses (even honors courses) and majors, and expansion of need-based aid seems to imply that anyone can or should be able to afford an elite school.</p>
<p>My kitchen IS awful- that is an objective fact! </p>
<p>We live in a consumer oriented society… I can’t buck that. So people like to own the best, and like to believe that they paid less for the best than the chump next to them. So it’s no fun flying full fare to Orlando; it’s fun paying $275 round trip knowing that the guy across the aisle paid $850. Or buying a top of the line car and negotiating hard because it was the end of the month and the dealer was getting killed on his inventory. Believe me- I don’t try to deny people their joys and triumphs!</p>
<p>But it’s only noteworthy when a kid “wins an athletic scholarship to Princeton” (demonstrably false but hey, parents can claim what they wish.) Or when a kid turns down Dartmouth for a full ride at Penn. (pretty sure that’s false also.) Or the legions of kids I know who “got a great package from Harvard but decided that the basketball was better at Duke” or whatever. There’s no drama in parents and kid deciding to pay full freight at the school they think will suit the kid best. Even if there’s a cheaper alternative, which all their neighbors think is “just as good”. Or get defensive that somehow if they’d spent less on toys and skiing, they’d have the cash available to even consider a full pay option. Or consider it a personal slight that your kid is not attending State U which everyone knows is “even better for XYZ field”.</p>
<p>So that’s the context in which the money comes up. Helps to have a thick skin, and to have kids who are grateful for the sacrifices made along the way!</p>
<p>^^ Frazzled- Excellent post and very realistic.</p>
<p>The question we get is “Why are you paying out of state tuition?” Our son’s Ivy is often confused with a large state university with a similar name and a much better football team.
Interestingly, when we lived in Texas, we were never once questioned about our daughter’s choice of Rice.</p>
<p>The worst comment I got was this.</p>
<p>One “friend” (acquaintance, frenemie?) had a very high opinions of her kids’ accomplishments. There was good reason for this; both are accomplished. Neither did the summer stuff my kids did, which was not for resume, but was for enrichment.</p>
<p>The older daughter of my friend was saluditorian of her class but had mediocre SAT’s. Her son had fabulous SAT’s but a slightly underperformed GPA.</p>
<p>The upshot was that my kids did slightly better in the admissions lottery. But ever so slightly.</p>
<p>At one point I asked what her son had loved about Haverford (where he applied ED.) I am a community college professor and counsel transfer students so I am always interested in what people have to say. I mentioned that my S had liked Vassar but hadn’t seen Haverford.</p>
<p>Her comment? “Haverford is what Vassar pretends to be. Vassar is a little run down. And WHEN YOU’RE PAYING FULL FREIGHT YOU REALLY WANT YOUR MONEY’S WORTH.”</p>
<p>Her implication? That because we were receiving FA (something I hadn’t told her) I cared less about my S’s college education. At that time he was considering Vassar and U of Chicago (“Oh, don’t go there. It’s where fun goes to die.”) I said, “Spoken like a true Northwestern parent.” I imagine there’s some rivalry there.</p>
<p>She was truly devastated when my S got into Williams.</p>
<p>And her comment when her D didn’t get into Barnard where my D was attending? “I can’t imagine why my D was accepted when yours was. I guess they want to diversify their economic profile.”</p>
<p>Meow! It would hurt if it wasn’t so transparent. It hurts that people who are supposedly my friends want to be that competitive and hurtful.</p>
<p>S’s close friend was accepted at Princeton and I was ecstatic for him. I know it’s a great place for him.</p>
<p>Yeah, we all just need to develop a thick skin. Doesn’t happen so much anymore (since the economy tanked) but we used to get grief from folks about “sending” our kid to the state school that gets confused with one the Ivy MOWC sent her son to 
Anyway, we got lots of rude and thoughtless comments from the significant contingent of folks around here who could be described as “private or nothing.” Some of them friends (egads!). One I clearly remember “Why would you make THAT choice? Are you guys looking to retire early?” Wow.
I guess it’s human nature to be curious about the lives of others. And competitive. I have to admit that I wonder about folks who I know are on the edge and are shelling out huge dollars for college. But I keep my mouth shut and I remind myself that everyone has reasons and that I can’t possibly know the full picture. I guess my mother taught me well!</p>
<p>We never got any of the rude remarks others are reporting when our daughter turned down some private elite schools to attend our state school for financial reasons. </p>
<p>What bothered me most was the pressure from high school classmates who insisted that my daughter should go to the best school she got into, though my daughter shared the fact that the financial aid was simply not enough. There was a lot of peer pressure not to go with the local option and a lot of class pride involved in seeing classmates go to top schools. Luckily, it has all worked out for the best, but I was very disappointed to see wealthy classmates discouraging kids from taking the local, affordable option.</p>
<p>I don’t see the same kind of discussion in our circles over K-12 private versus public. There might be some discussion among the preschool parents. Otherwise, all the scathing discussion seems to be with your own tribe. We and our friends who send their kids to public K-12 will talk amongst ourselves about the cost of going private. I’d think that our friends whose kids attend privates cluck their tongues over class size and discipline policies at the publics. By middle school or high school, we all know families who end up switching to the other camp. Some of the private school families can no longer afford the tuition, and some of the public school kids need a more nurturing environment.</p>
<p>This goes on all the time about everything. My kid just got married. A neighbor stopped to ask me about the wedding. She’d heard about it from another neighbor who had attended. Just to be polite, I asked about her D, and said “I heard she got married recently too.” I didn’t ask about the wedding–just about her D. </p>
<p>Response? “Oh, yes, she got married in November. We offered her and her husband the same $ we would have spent on a wedding to do something else. They made the SENSIBLE choice and took the money instead of having a wedding.” </p>
<p>I really wondered if she had stopped me to ask about the wedding for the SOLE purpose of telling me that!</p>
<p>Eeeew, I guess it helps to live in the hinterlands where you just don’t talk about “stuff like that”. College admissions as spectator sport? That is really sad if that’s what groups of adults have to talk about. Really. Our hinterlands conversations: “heh where’s junior going to school in the fall?” “Oh that’s great you must be so thrilled.” “Isn’t juniorette about ready to graduate? What did she end up majoring in?” and then we’re on to a different conversation. There are definitely advantages to living in the boonies.</p>
<p>Now I know why I hang out at CC. So few people in real life asks me about schools and colleges! I can count the folks on the fingers of one hand. Luckily nobody has ever said anything catty.</p>
<p>I agree mom. I am living in an area of the country away from those conversations as well. My sons friend went to NYU for film and most comments were oh that is nice or he must like the big city. A friend going to harvard was greeted with isn’t that in Boston somewhere?</p>
<p>Much more refreshing than the financial comments.</p>