Reverse Brain Drain?

<p>For decades, the finest scientists and academics from much of the rest of the world, in particular Europe and Asia, were flocking to US universities for research and faculty positions. However, recently, and in particular just this past year, things have been changing at an alarming rate. In response to problems with visas and US immigration and changing attitudes towards science in other parts of the world the US is now witnessing somewhat of a reverse brain drain. This has been discussed in a number of prestegious journals and publications this past year citing not only many scientists packing up and leaving the US, but also many more just not coming over in the first place... as a result Europe is now outpacing the US in many research fields in terms of the number of publications and the recipients of notable awards. This really comes as a shock to many of us in the US since we're so used to just being the best "by default."</p>

<p>For example, Harvard (seen by many as the holly grain of all universities by many on these forums) has a very impressive 41 Nobel Laureate alumni (faculty or students) but I bet few people on these forums would realize that in fact this is totally trumped by Cambridge in Engalnd (a school of equal size) which has 80 alumni, the most of any in the world, and even Oxford comes in higher at 47. Although we certainly still do lots of fantastic stuff in the states, our attitude of just being the best becuase "we're the US" is not only wrong in many respects, but may (and is already starting to) come back to haunt us in the long run... </p>

<p>Comments?</p>

<p>Maybe because Harvard is much younger than Cambridge and Oxford?</p>

<p>Hoo_29,</p>

<p>Yeah, initially that's what I thought too... but after thinking about it a bit more it dosen't make too much difference really. Harvard was founded in the mid 1600s... cambridge as founded in the early 1200s (mega old), but by the time the Nobels started being awarded (early 1900s) both universities were already hundreds of years old so I doubt that really has much to do with it. </p>

<p>The other thing I thought about was what if Cambridge just won a bunch way back when (i.e. pre WWII) and then didn't do much lately, but this also dosen't really seem to be the case as all of their Nobel Laureates are basically fairly spread out over the entire time period up until the present.</p>

<p>Obviously, citing the Nobel Prizes is just one of many parameters that could be used to measure this sort of thing, but it certainly can't be ignored. And as I mentioned already, several articles have also cited things like number of journal articles published in various research areas and such... in fact if you just pick up any major journal and look where the authors are from you'll see what I'm talking about.</p>

<p>Interesting</p>

<p>reverse brain drain definitely exists. Germany will lead the world in exports this year for the first time. It has been the US for the past 30 years or so, but now, the US will lose dominance in that regard.</p>

<p>Everyone is chipping away at the US, and the US isn't doing anything about it except throw silly little tantrums at the Middle East. In the end, this will only accelerate our demise after a brief blip in military power. It is time to change our strategy.</p>

<p>The problem is two fold...and has little to do with immigration laws. </p>

<p>1) The US is becoming more conservative and intellectuals are usually very liberal. In the 1960s and 70s, the US was seen as an advanced society. Today, the US lags Europe severely in terms of liberalization and social consciousness.</p>

<p>2) Many Europeans and Asians were flocking to American universities because their own countries were not nearly as wealthy or advanced enough to sustain their research funding. This is rapidely. changing. The Japanese and Western Europeans are enjoying similar qualities of life as Americans and China is rapidely gaining on them.</p>

<p>^^^ Yes. But the weakness of every other nation is that they are not willing to shake up domestic hierarchy in search of true talent. The US has always had the notion of the "American Dream" where a poor person can work hard, and become wealthy. This notion of hard work and talent being the key instead of stagnancy and defending positions has been the key to America's rise to world power. </p>

<p>And now, the right wing is worried about losing American dominance in the world, and supplement it by military action. When in fact, they are reluctant to do the time again search for true talent and hard work philosophy because they want to defend their stagnant upper class positions. </p>

<p>America has only succeeded because of the search for true talent, hard work regardless of skin color. Reluctance to go to it, will only encourage other nations who are not willing to take it up, more likely to take it up and beat us at our own game.</p>

<p>Just to followup about my mention of journal articles... this a a very brief but also very random analysis looking at last week's issue of the American journal Science. I would have used this week's issue, but it's a special issue just on the Mars rover missions and thus only contains articles on that. Science, and as well as if not more so Nature, are considered the two top journals for scientists to publish in. I could have chosen Nature, but since it's a UK journal I didn't use it here so people can't just say "oh, well it's a european journal" ;-)</p>

<p>Anway, so for last week's issue the breakdown of lead authors for the published research papers is as follows:</p>

<p>US - 9
Europe - 8
Canada - 1</p>

<p>So although this is only looking at one issue (although from experience I can tell you this is typical) the US certainly isn't quite the global dominating powerhouse that some people still think we are. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... but we'll just be hurting ourselves if we fail to take it all into consideration as we plan the future of American higher education.</p>

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<p>By choosing any two given schools you can make the US win or lose according to whatever outcome you want. Instead of focusing on Harvard and Cambridge, a more comprehensive analysis would be all US schools vs. all British schools. It wouldn't even be close.</p>

<p>And better yet would be to look at the US vs. Rest of the World. In the post-WWII era the US would probably win that one too.</p>

<p>Looking at the future, however, the number of foreign students coming to the US is down significantly this year. A big part of that is that visas are not being issued to students who want to study in the US. In addition, Chinese students are only allowed a one way entrance visa good for 5 years. If they leave the country for any reason during that time they lose their visa and have to start all over again. And even if they know they need to go home to China to deal with a family member, they can't apply for a new visa until they are back in China. Average waiting time is 9 months.</p>

<p>My husband works with a Swiss national who has been in this country for years teaching at a major university. He went back to Switzerland for a few weeks 2 summers ago and couldn't get a re-entry visa for 4 months! In the meantime he is supposed to present at an international conference in NY and can't get into the country. It took the interevention of a state senator to get him a temp visa for the conference. Then he had to go back to Switzerland to wait for his permanent one. It is crazy. Why would anyone want to put themselves through all this just to come study or work in the US when they can go to other countries much more easily?</p>

<p>America has become a right-wing nutty police state ever since sept 11, and pretty soon we will lose our superpower status. But in many ways we deserve it. We ruin other countries, suck on oil like a nasty leach, and are inherently racist to the core. Time for China and the European Union to take the reign of world leadership. Move over Soviet Union cause we are going to join you in the basement of mediocrity.</p>

<p>Ubermensch, as a non-American, I must say that I agree with some of what you say, but not all. The US is moving backwards in terms of social and political policy. But the US is not losing its power. It remains the largest economy and military in the World. But other parts of the world are gaining power. The EU and China are on the rise and will provide balance to World power. A balance that has been vacated by the Soviet Union when it collapsed in the mid to late 80s. </p>

<p>However, for Europe to grow into a viable force, a few things must happen. Most important of all, England must join France and Germany. Without England, Europe will never have the cohesion necessary to make it a meaningful block. Italy and Spain will fall into place if England decides to take its place along with France and Germany. Secondly, Europe needs to build the infrastructure to attract the best and the brightest. They have the resources, but they lack the proper system. They need to fund better universities and alter their labor laws. Of course, the alterations need not be drastic, but they need to be effective. I would hate it if Europe lost its joie de vivre. Europe's social consciousness is what makes it so unique. Finally, Europe needs to build its own joint strike force and leave the UN. The UN is a joke. It has been since the 1940s.</p>

<p>First there will be a three-way power share between China, U.S., and the EU. Finally though, America will collapse like the Soviet Union. </p>

<p>The turning point will be the next presidential election. If another right-wing Chrisitain fundamentalist takes power after Bush, it will seal our own demise. Mark my words. We will be weak.</p>

<p>As a member of what ubermensch would probably call the right wing...I'd like to chime in on this. </p>

<p>I agree with much of what has been said in that there is a reverse brain-drain. And also that the US is becoming weaker intellectually.</p>

<p>I disagree with Uber's reasons for this drain but don't need to go into that.</p>

<p>I do agree that China and the EU will become stronger in relation to the US. At least I hope that the EU becomes stronger. I always question the strength of their ties to each other. It seems that ethnic prejudice seethes beneath the surface in Europe for centuries and then occasionally erupts into violence. I would hope that the EU will prove to be strong enough to have a unified military force so that they can at least operate in Europe effectively.</p>

<p>I believe that the US may be on a slow downward slide in terms of world dominance. It could actually collapse as some people have said. In fact, I believe that financially it may be a house of cards that could collapse through terrorist action or even just on it's own. If that were to happen it would be a world-wide catastrophe that would take some time to sort out. It's hard to say what would come out of the restructuring but I think it is safe to say that the US would not have the influence it has today.</p>