@CaliMex Maximum respect, as we would say in my beloved Montego Bay, Jamaica.
I agree with you, but let’s not forget that college matriculation is a part of all of this.
I’m in general agreement that you shouldn’t choose a boarding school based solely on college matriculation, as the numbers can be artificially inflated. But it would be disingenuous to assume that matriculation stats should play no role at all. The primary goal of a boarding school is to educate a child. But if you’re paying a quarter of a million dollars, you might as well get a peek under the hood.
Now the only reason I suggested to ask about matriculation during revisit days is because of the skewed way that the schools report this to parents. The best time to get realistic stats is during the revisit days. This is generally the only time they would be willing to share this information. My son did revisits at 3 schools, and I remember that Deerfield in particular did not publish their matriculation numbers anywhere. But I emailed the admissions office afterwards, and they gladly shared the 5 year stats with me. It was only afterwards that I learned about the Naviance scattergrams.
To protect privacy, the college counseling offices will not release scattergrams for a college unless it has at least 5 students on it. Keeping this in mind, I would suggest to ask for unhooked scattergrams for only a handful of colleges. You might consider a wide range of colleges, from ultra selective to the local state U. This will give you a better sense of how students from that particular boarding school fare during college admissions.
I don’t disagree. But I’ve seen parents here argue over 10 basis points.Or 3 year data vs. 4 year vs. 5 year. Or 2018 data vs 1993. So that I find mind boggling. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.
Here are some pointed questions to consider. During revisits you want to get a sense of what the worst case scenario might be. I wouldn’t necessarily ask these directly to the administration, but definitely try to find out the answers via the website, or other means. Most of these answers will be found in the student handbook, a must read for every student/parent before making a final decision:
- What is the school's threshold for disciplinary action? Suspension/expulsion/detention?
- Is this a one-strike school? Or are kids given a second chance?
- What is the policy on drug/alcohol possession?
- If a student is not doing well academically, do you have a sink-or-swim attitude, or are adequate safety nets in place? When are the parents notified during this process?
- What is the policy on switching classes/schedules? What is my child wants to take a different teacher for a class than the one originally assigned?
- How much interaction does the administration want/need from parents? Will administrators listen to my concerns and take them seriously? Or will my emails and phone calls go unanswered?
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Here’s another reason not to go by college matriculation:
A kid might feel pressured to apply to/attend an Ivy because their parents want to have bragging rights and/or because the school wants an impressive matriculation list to attract more applicants.
But what if a particular Ivy-bound kid would have been happier at a better “fit” but less “prestigious” school? What if the Ivy is too high pressure and they end up miserable, dropping out, or losing confidence? (Has anyone read Gladwell’s David & Goliath and the chapter on the outcomes for equally qualified engineering students at different schools?) The school won’t be judged for mis-advising the kid having already scored points for their matriculation list.
The bottom line: Do you want a college counseling office focused on bragging rights or fit?
We don’t know the stories beneath matriculation lists, whether kids were hooked/unhooked, or whether the colleges listed really were the very best options for those particular kids.
An “impressive” matriculation list could mean that the counseling office prioritizes prestige over fit… We just don’t know from merely looking at the lists.
@CaliMex We’re not basing a decision to attend solely or mainly on college matriculation. It’s one of many, many points.
However there is relevancy to this in some form or fashion. For example, taking an extreme example to make the point, if no one from high school X goes to a “top” college (whatever that means), that is a data point that would be relevant for the calculus we are undergoing right now, at least for our family.
I totally agree with you on fit, but that begs the question of what fit means. Different strokes for different folks, as one of favorite bands used to sing. It varies for each of us and our students. But that’s the point of this discussion is to help your student make the best choice they can based on what they interpret fit to be.
Our kids are young. They all think getting into an Ivy or “top” school is all that matters for success. It is affecting their mental health and causing some of the grown ups in their lives to go to great lengths to “ensure” that outcome.
We need to read the Frank Bruni book with them, show them how few of the Fortune 500 CEOs attended “top” schools and override the predominant cultural messages which run counter to the actual DATA. (See Stanford research from Challenge Success).
We all assume OUR kids won’t be the ones with a mental breakdown or anxiety… or the ones so burnt out from the effort to get into a top college, they won’t make the most of being there or know what to do afterwards. There is an unprecedented mental health crisis at our universities… it isn’t a coincidence.
The emphasis on prestige is misguided, not supported by data, and potentially dangerous.
@CaliMex I have to be honest that the pressure to apply to Ivies to make the CC office happy is one of our fears. Based on prior classes and where they applied, I don’t think it is an issue at SMS, but I can’t help but wonder.
Another question I would ask is percentages of local boarders vs distant boarders (especially if your child will be the latter) as these numbers are not published anywhere. Many NE schools are filled with boarders whose parents live within an hour & they are able to leave campus most weekends.
Another question may be the ability to do sports and EC fine arts simultaneously (drama, choir, etc).
Also, the ability to get your kid to the airport if sports commitments force them to miss the general shuttle. What arrangement can be made if dorms close and a tournament requires kiddo to stay in town before Thanksgiving? Are the additional costs for Uber on you?
If your kid chooses a sport and hates it…can they change? If so, at what point?
Those are just some suggestions…have fun!!!
Other great Qs to ask:
- Formal seated meals: How often? We are fans of how they knit a community together… some kids hate them.
- Housing by grade or vertically integrated? Pros and cons to each.
- Tutoring and extra help. Peer tutors? Teachers? Are outside tutors welcomed?
- Students’ role in “judicial” process for discipline. Do they have a say? What is their role? How transparent is process?
Cell phone/social media policy?
Lights out policy, and how strictly is it enforced? What exceptions to the rule are there?
Dining hall access outside of mealtime? Do kids order food to be delivered?
Also: Listen carefully to the messages you hear from the head of school and others. Be wary of flattery. Question the values. What is their vision?
For example, I don’t think it does a kid good to keep hearing how special they are to have been admitted, the great heritage of the school they must now be worthy of, and other messages that can feed entitlement or feel like pressure.
We also were turned off by the head of school at an institution whose sole mission seemed to be to prove that they were every bit as good as some of the better-known New England schools. Hardly inspiring.
@CaliMex I was about to say “come on, you’re being ridiculous! who pushes their kid to apply to colleges that wouldn’t be a good fit for them.” And then I thought about all the kids I know whose parents had them apply to boarding schools at which said kid would be miserable and I realized there must be lot of parents out there who either don’t really know their kids or who are obsessed with the name brand. So sad. As the parent of a pair of opposites, I am very aware, almost every day, that each kid can need something totally different.
@CaliMex come to think of it, you’re right. And to be asking our kids to be thinking of college when you’re 13 or 14 is a problem. I know when I was that age, the thought of what college I was going to NEVER crossed my mind.
Thanks for making an extremely important point. It’s still slightly early on West Coast and I was working until midnight, so the clarity of your thought and your repeated emphasis on this finally got through to my fuzzy brain!
While I do agree that Revisit Days are helpful, it is important to remember that it is just a one day glimpse when most are on their best behavior.
I know parents and students who changed their decision based on revisits who now regret changing & not matriculating as planned.
Most interesting to me were the insights & information shared by the other parents in attendance during the revisits.
@Publisher that is what we found most helpful. Every year at PEA they invite current parents to have lunch with the admitted student parents at revisit day. One of the things I appreciate is they have never coached the current parents who attend on how and what to say. I have volunteered at this event for many years and met lots of interesting people. We have had real genuine conversations about the fears and hopes they have for their kids. This in my opinion is what is most helpful.
FWIW here are some questions NOT to ask and/or questions that we observed to be followed by eye-rolling during Revisits. Before you rush to judgement: Not saying these questions can’t be asked, just saying use discretion @ when and where to ask - especially if your student is sitting next to you. Feel free to add to the list!
- Any question about latest embarrassing sex scandal at school in an auditorium full of parents & kids.
- What to wear to parents weekend and/or to drop-off.
- Can my kid bring his/her X-Box?
- Do you restrict hours of playing Fortnite?
- Where is the ATM at school?
- Can my kid’s private tutor come to campus?
- We have a wedding in Barbados in September, so is it OK if “junior” misses the first week of school? (Yep, this was actually asked by a parent).
- Asking about anything posted on Twines & Vines @ the school you are Revisiting.
- Any question related to boasting about “junior” needing super advanced math from the nearby college because she/he just aced the AP Calc test whilst in 8th grade.
Best Question Award: “Can my kid’s private tutor come to campus ?”
I encourage everyone to read through the schools’ handbooks. Then, use revisit day to talk to current parents, absorb some of the atmosphere and attitude clues during Q&As, get a vibe for how a typical day flows, see how your kid reacts to the teaching style of the classes and the vibe of the other kids.
Sometimes the “softer” things will make a large difference.
Ditto what @Publisher said. We found asking current parents questions to be very helpful, and now, as a parent volunteer, I LOVE to be asked stuff. We’re at the revisit days to help you, and no, we haven’t been coached. Please seek us out. See you at revisit!
Best Question Award: “Can my kid’s private tutor come to campus ?”
Don’t they all use Skype tutors now? That’s what I hear, both at BS and at college too. I think some of it is for SAT/ACT prep but I thought it was pretty funny first time I heard. Alas, have since learned it is rather common.