Rigor (AP vs. DE) and planning for a bright STEM/pre-med kid

Parents Forum
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Hi, CC parents!

My DS1 is a straight A 10th grader who isn’t finding much challenge in his current HS curriculum. He’s in Honors / AP classes whenever possible, but his interests have already led him to our local CC where he’s finding more depth, more variety and more challenge. He took two classes there as a 9th grader (Intro to Psych and Japanese 101, both As, and on top of his regular HS schedule) and loved both of them.

I would rate his HS as good-but-not-outstanding, but the CC in question is top ranked in the nation.

So here’s our dilemma: he can replace many/most of his HS classes with college classes - HIST 101/102 instead of APUSH, etc. and the school will let him. The question is should he?

In many cases, he’ll be happy to take the relevant AP test, but he’d rather take the class at the CC because he feels like the AP focus on the test, including practice tests and the homework load, represents time and effort that would be better spent engaging with the material for its own sake.

When he took the psych class, he turned around and took the AP Psych test with no prep other than the class and got a 4. Granted, it’s not a 5, but it’s also not a bad score for a 9th grader with zero test-specific prep.

At the moment, he’s thinking pre-med, with some other STEM field as a distant second.

He hasn’t taken the PSAT yet, but I’d say he’s got a decent chance at NMF.

College-wise, we’re looking at a couple of LACs (e.g. Pomona, Carleton), some STEM schools (Rice, Cal Poly SLO) and some UCs, one of which would be a financial safety because we qualify for Blue & Gold and he could live at home.

He’s not an athlete, but he’s got good ECs (drama, officer in the writing club, Anime club, peer tutor) and some interesting volunteer work (zoo, animal shelter, CERT (emergency response training)).

Given all of that, and not wanting to do anything that would be seen as a negative during the admissions process, what would you advise us to do vis a vis the DE classes?

Many thanks!

Dia

P.S. I’ve been a lurker here for about a year, so I’m already indebted to all of you for the wonderful info/advice / community here. I wasn’t quite sure where to put this, so if it’s better off elsewhere, let me know and I’ll move it.

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A potential pre-med should be aware that college courses taken while in high school and the grades earned in them will be included for calculating GPA for applying to medical school. Good if he pre-loads his pre-med GPA with A and A+ grades, bad if he gets B+ or lower grades.

Since you are in California, the community colleges are likely to have stronger offerings than the community colleges in many other states, so rigor and preparation for upper division courses at UCs and CSUs should be fine. But some medical schools frown on community college courses for pre-med requirements (biology, chemistry, physics, math), so he may have to take more advanced courses in some of those subject areas at a four year school if he takes the intro-level pre-med courses at community colleges.

AP credit typically does not count for pre-med course requirements, and AP scores typically do not affect pre-med GPA.

Use http://www.assist.org to check which community college courses are transferable and what they are equivalent to at the various UCs and CSUs.

Remember, pre-med does not require any specific major. If he can take a substantial number of college courses while in high school, he may have more options for majors and electives due to less schedule crowding.

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@ucbalumnus Re: CC in HS GPA counting for med school admission - Ooooh, I didn’t know that. Thank you! Yes, he’s made all As so far, but we’ll keep that in mind.

@ All

Re: major - undecided except that it will probably be a STEM field with an interest in pre-med. He’s had physics and some general science, but he’s taking his first bio and chem courses this year.

Re: college - The list above is partial, but representative. If he makes NMF, we’ll add some of the NMF full ride schools to the list.

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He should give his potential college major(s) some thought (not necessarily now, but before he reaches the point where he must decide, which may be in 12th grade if he applies to impacted majors at colleges, but can be as late as second year of college for some majors and colleges). Do not assume that all STEM majors have good job prospects at graduation – biology is the most popular STEM major, but the flood of biology graduates compared to the number of biology-specific jobs means that most need to look in the general non-specific bachelor’s degree job market. Chemistry is not much better than biology in this respect. Remember that only a small percentage of aspiring pre-meds get into even one medical school, so having thought beforehand about backup plans may be desirable.

Also be aware that medical school is very expensive, and a pre-med may not have much choice if s/he gets into just one medical school. High medical school debt can limit a physician’s future career options (e.g. must chase the money instead of taking a lower pay specialty that s/he really likes).

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CC in HS GPA counting for med school admission - Ooooh, I didn’t know that. Thank you! Yes, he’s made all As so far, but we’ll keep that in mind.


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Yes, very true. That’s a surprise to many. Also…altho those grades WILL count within the calculated cum GPA and BCMP GPA for med school apps, but med schools will not like seeing the science classes with labs being taken while in high school.

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Remember that only a small percentage of aspiring pre-meds get into even one medical school, so having thought beforehand about backup plans may be desirable.


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Particularly if they’re trying to get into Calif med schools.

If a student can make a “tie” to another state’s med schools, that can help with admissions.

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Certainly negotiate the complexities of college credit, GPA, transfers, scholarships, even med school as well as possible, including this CC and of course lots of people you can engage with at community college or at say a UC.

Your DS seems really smart, and I would be hesitant to limit his intellectual growth just to optimize some far-flung goal. Keeping him inspired and learning will really help him in the future and also open new doors and new opportunities.

I doubt taking classes at a CC is going to lower his med school chances, becoming disenchanted and not working hard enough will. If he takes a pre-med class now, in HS, he can take something more advance in college. While this could lead to a lower GPA, I don’t really buy that, since he should be really well prepared and he is already a really smart kid. And, you can turn down college credit and repeat a class.

And if we are chasing dollars to pay future medical school bills, the Blue and Gold offer is a fantastic start and you could look at some merit options as well.

Lots of pre-meds find things that interest them more, I also don’t buy that all of them are just discouraged and drop-out. Medicine and the years of schooling is not for everyone, and the salaries are doable in other industries without the debt and years invested.

7

Thanks again, ucb. :slight_smile:

@mom2collegekids - Many thanks. I’ve read several of your threads re: med school, so if he stays committed to pre-med, we’ll probably focus on hitting NMF and going to someplace like OU, Bama/UAB, or something in Texas. Or if we win the lottery twice (aka Gates and he gets in), something like Rice->Baylor or maybe Brown PLME.

So it sounds like it might be OK to do things like History and English via DE, but not the science/lab courses. Those will need to stay AP, yes?

I’ll have to double check stats and calculus for our HS. Hmm, looks like stats is DE-only (no AP), and calc is AP if you want AB, but after that, it’s DE-only, so no BC.

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Thanks, PickOne1. :slight_smile: He’s a bright kid, but one of his foibles is that he sometimes has little patience for stuff he considers hoop-jumping - and taking an AP class so you can take a test for college credit when you can just take the actual class at an actual college? To him that qualifies as hoop-jumping. He says it’s inefficient. grin

For me, it’s a matter of picking battles, so I’m trying to figure out which ones to pick.

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My son hates hoop-jumping too . . . in fact that sounds exactly like something he would say. For him, a chief criteria for choosing a school is whether said school will take most, if not all, of his DE credits.

We are homeschoolers and love DE, but as others have mentioned be very aware that DE grades stay around forever (seemingly). It might help to meet with the DE advisor at your local community college. At our CC, a meeting with the advisor is required to register and it is a very good use of our time.

Also, if you are looking at an “elite” school check their admissions page to see how they view AP vs. DE.

ETA: Also be aware that CCs expect students to function as adult college students.

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I’m a little confused, if S got an A and credit for Psych class at CC, why did he take AP test?

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If he takes BCPM* courses at CC, then it is probably best to take some advanced courses in those subjects at the four year school, in order to “confirm” (to some medical schools) his ability to do well in BCPM courses at a four year school. This should not be much of a problem if his major is in a BCPM subject (since he will be taking advanced courses in his major at a four year school), but if his major is in something else (e.g. humanities, social studies, or engineering), he may have to include some advanced BCPM courses as electives. There may be a few medical schools that do not accept CC BCPM courses at all, so if those are under consideration, he may need to take enough of those courses in the correct distribution at the four year school.

*BCPM = biology, chemistry, physics, math

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Re: why did he take the AP test if he got an A in the DE class - two reasons:

  1. It was a low-stakes way to try out an AP test. If he did poorly, it wouldn’t hurt him because he had an A in the class. Now he knows what an AP test is like, broadly speaking, and he didn’t have to worry about “what if I get a 2?” while taking it.

  2. Some colleges won’t give credit for DE classes that replace HS classes. So if he uses the college class in place of AP Psych on his HS transcript (and therefore loses the college credit at some places), he gets the college credit back with a 4 on the test.

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This is all very helpful. Thank you so much, everyone!

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Note that college courses may cover material faster than high school AP courses. For example, college introductory psychology is usually a semester-long course, while the high school AP course is often a year-long course. That is likely why some high school students take five or six high school AP courses simultaneously, but college students usually take fewer college courses per semester.

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Thanks, ucb. His HS uses block scheduling, so an AP class is a single semester, but 1.5 hrs/day. They do 4 classes each semester.

S really likes it, but I’ll note that it’s less than optimal if you have an AP class first semester but can’t take the test until May.

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Community colleges are full of kids who weren’t prepared for real college. Most CC students tend to have fairly low ACT scores.

Ask yourself, what is the projected average ACT score of the students in your son’s AP classes. Now what is your guess of the average ACT of the kids in a community college class?

I agree with you that AP classes require much more work, some of it a waste of time. But I feel that the AP courses at my son’s high school are far more rigorous than the college courses that he’s taken at a full university. Just my view.

17

Ask the GC to see if he can take the PSAT this year as practice. My D1 took it in 10th grade as her school offered that option. My D2 is now a 10th grader at the same school and they make the PSAT practice as standard this year. It is never too early to prepare for college. Does your S has a practice score yet?

Note that DE credits are not universal. It may be not accepted by college particularly from OOS. While AP exam score is widely accepted although the credit policy differs from school to school. I know a student from CA with many DE credits but they are all not accepted at UMich. It seems you are aware of it too.

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Thanks, Earl & Bill!

Re: PSAT - he’s taking it as a practice run next month.

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As others have mentioned, medical school applications require submission of all college credits from ALL schools. I believe I read somewhere that med schools look at CC credits differently–especially if it’s a prerequisite science class. Perhaps your CC. Is rigorous, but most are not. I hope others can comment on this.

20

Just do whatever seem fit him the best. My D’s strategy was to get college credits for her “weaker” classes while at HS, so that she would not damage her college GPA. College GPA is extremely important when applying to Medical School. As an example, her hardest class was History, so she took college History while in HS and left easy Stats for college. it has worked.
College wise, if Med. School is in plans, aim at the cheapest UG. Your kid will have several offers of full tuition Merit awards if he applies to the correct schools. Highly recommend considering them. Going for the name recognition does not give any advantage at all if considering Medical School. I am a parent of the first year resident and my D. mentioned several times that while her medical school class had significant number of student graduated from the Ivy / Elite, many of them regretted attending there and spending family resources on their UG education as it gave them no advantages at all.

No matter what your kid standing in his HS class, the academic efforts will have to be adjusted upwards at college considerably. Those valedictorians in D’s pre-med crowd who did not recognize this fact, got derailed after the first Bio class in the first semester of freshman year at college. D. had Honors and AP Bio - 5 on exam and was shocked by the high level of her first college Bio class that went thru AP material in the first 2 weeks and then moved on.
My advice is to take whatever makes most sense to your S. personally and be prepared to work very hard at college. My D. was the same type of student as your S. She never had a single B in her life from the kindergarten thru graduating from college. She had great choices of Med. Schools. I wish the best to your hard working kid!