RML Rankings

[tk21769]

<p>If anything, I would expect that a first rate researcher and writer is, more often than not, also a decent teacher. Of course, a famous professor does tend to be a busy professor. Maybe too busy for undergraduates in many cases. But that does not mean that what they are busy doing does not benefit their departments or the wider communities.</p>

<p>As for the CP grades, I’m not surprised at any of the schools in the A+ list. I just don’t know what to make of the fact that Harvard professors are getting A’s and Chicago professors are getting A+'s. Chicago is a somewhat less selective school than Harvard, so maybe Harvard students have higher expectations. Or maybe Chicago professors really do try harder (so they can become Harvard professors?) Who knows?</p>

<p>I mean, it’s not useless information. I’m confident the A+ schools as a group do offer better instruction than the B schools as a group. I appreciate this and all your other lists, hawkette.</p>

[prodigalson]

<p>

@hawkette

As for whether students can make a judgment about whether good teaching is going on or not, I can’t disagree more strongly.

</p>

<p>Students only attend classes in their own schools. They have no basis for comparison. </p>

<p>How can anyone judge something to be good or bad if there isn’t anything to judge it against??</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

The idea that institutions as large and complex as universities, which by their very nature serve many different needs, can be ranked to determine a “best” and “second best”, etc. is beyond ridiculous. Millions have fallen into the trap set by USNWR and they have made a fortune off of it. It is like saying there is a best car and that car is a 2 seater sports car. Yeah, that would fit a family of 5’s needs really well. Sure, you could try ranking the cars, or colleges, into subgroups like sedans, trucks, etc. and of course that is exactly what the magazines do. But if the #1 ranked vehicle still doesn’t have the features you want and #7 does, then the rankings are useless.

This is exactly right.

It is difficult, if not impossible to quantify whether a professor can or can’t “teach worth beans.” The CP results certainly do not and can not.

I agree with this as well.

@hawkette

As for whether students can make a judgment about whether good teaching is going on or not, I can’t disagree more strongly. Students aren’t stupid.

Are the students sampled by CP chosen randomly, or is there convenience sampling at work? Are we comparing apples to apples?

@hawkette

Here again are the schools that received an A grade for Academics from the students surveyed by CP. Do you think any of these don’t belong??

Classic confirmation bias. The rankings are right because they confirm your preconceived beliefs.</p>

[hawkette]

<p>One of the reasons that I like CP’s grading is that I think it is more representative of the many excellent faculties that have developed over time. The PA scoring shows tiering that IMO is more pronounced in print (and ranking) than it is in the experience. PA plays out more like a zero-sum game whose result was established decades ago and perpetuates that original hierarchy without much reflection.</p>

<p>As for CP’s grading, I don’t make huge distinctions between schools that are a notch away from another grade, ie, a school with an A+ is arguably not that different than the schools graded A, so I’m not concluding automatically that U Chicago is “better” than Harvard. As with all statistics, however, as that spread widens, I do think that it says something. And I like the real-time nature of CP as the students are a current barometer of what is going on today in the classroom. If you have not read their stuff, find a book on a college that you know a lot about and read it. I have been impressed at the breadth and depth of the information that they have gathered and how often they get it right. </p>

<p>No imag,
You’ve attended college classes, right? Were some better than others? Did some professors impress you more than others? Did some professors exhibit a greater command of their subject than others? Did some professors more skillfully interject new data/learnings into their courses and the discussions? Did the professors make teaching undergraduate students a priority individual mission? If you think that students are not able to make these judgments, then we know different people.</p>

<p>As for the matter of confirmation bias, if it helps at all, I can point you to several other sources that reach similar conclusions (Sparknotes, USNWR teaching surveys, Fiske, NSSE, etc.). </p>

<p>In most cases (about 75% of the time), even the PA scoring and CP reach the same conclusion about which schools offer great Academics, eg, of the 34 colleges that received A scores from CP, only 9 failed to score a 4.0 or better on the PA scoring—Notre Dame, USC, Tufts, Brandeis, W&M, Lehigh, U Rochester, Tulane and U Miami.</p>

[prodigalson]

<p>If you have the time to write ridiculously lengthy posts (usually loaded with gobs of statistics), couldn’t you at least take the little time to type out people’s full (user)names…</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

You’ve attended college classes, right? Were some better than others? Did some professors impress you more than others? Did some professors exhibit a greater command of their subject than others? Did some professors more skillfully interject new data/learnings into their courses and the discussions? Did the professors make teaching undergraduate students a priority individual mission? If you think that students are not able to make these judgments, then we know different people.

I’m a HS student, but I’ve observed some classes at my local directional state U. Different students have different priorities. If an anecdote is worth anything, many of my peers - and this includes “top” students who are going to Ivies - have a preference for educators who are easy graders or who spoon-feed material.</p>

<p>For my feelings on what makes a good professor, read [this</a> essay](<a href=“http://www.math.cmu.edu/~wn0g/RP.pdf]this”>http://www.math.cmu.edu/~wn0g/RP.pdf) by a Carnegie Mellon mathematics professor.</p>

[hawkette]

<p>Ok, sorry about not knowing your status. My guess is that when you’ve experienced 3-4 semesters of college, you will have a pretty good idea of what happens in a well-done class and what happens in a poorly-done class. There is a biiiiiiiig difference. </p>

<p>I think you will also find that after the work is done and for years after college, the professors that one most remembers and respects are not the ones who were easy graders, but those who inspired and stretched and helped you learn the most. IMO, that’s what I think all college profs should be striving for.</p>

<p>Thanks for the link and article. I think it makes some nice distinctions between terms that we use interchangeably (teacher, professor, researcher) and I agree with nearly all of it. When I write teacher here, I really mean someone who can take the information from the research areas and distill it and organize it and present it and make it relevant to the subject being taught. </p>

<p>Anyway, thanks for the chance to explain. Good luck with your college search and with your future professors. :)</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

I think you will also find that after the work is done and for years after college, the professors that one most remembers and respects are not the ones who were easy graders, but those who inspired and stretched and helped you learn the most. IMO, that’s what I think all college profs should be striving for.

You just proved my point. If CP indeed uses “the opinions of undergraduate students . . . based on real-time experiences and what’s happening today” (your own words), then we aren’t getting such carefully measured recollections. Instead, the results are based on short-term ratings with no accountability.</p>

<p>The disturbing thing about CP is their utter lack of transparency. From what I have been able to make out, CP “hires” unpaid interns who gather opinions and reviews from their fellow students and concatenate them into cohesive descriptions. Let’s consider two possible scenarios:</p>

<p>A) The chosen intern loves her school. She tells all her sorority sisters about her new editorial gig and asks them to submit reviews. A tremendous number of very positive ratings pour in, based on a convenience sample that does not represent reality.</p>

<p>B) The chosen intern is critical of how his college is managed. He markets CP as an opportunity to hold the administration accountable and encourages all of his similarly disposed friends to submit reviews highlighting areas needing reform.</p>

<p>These two samples could easily coexist at almost any large school. </p>

<p>Maybe everything is hunky-dory and CP attracts a random sample of perfectly unbiased reviewers, but we just don’t know. CP’s complete lack of transparency regarding their methodology makes their product complete rubbish. To make matters worse, the differences between the letter grades they offer are not clear at all. What exactly makes an A vs. an A- or B+? How can “academics” be distilled down to a letter grade?</p>

[callie123]

<p>I think the CP rating says nothing, except that all of the listed schools are doing an outstanding job teaching their undergrads. Also, student bodies differ in their tendencies to be more or less critical of their professors. In some schools, it is the students “thing” to be more critical, while at others, the trend is to be less so. I have always been a strong supporter of PA, as I feel that the professional educators know far more than the naysaying critics do, although they purport otherwise, and often for reasons that are not always transparent. At any rate, the rating discussed and PA are quite different markers.
Bottom line? Don’t take it to heart if your favorite school has an A- in some random ranking.</p>

[RML]

<p>

CP Grade for Academics , PA , School</p>

<p>A+ , 4.9 , Princeton
A+ , 4.9 , MIT
A+ , 4.9 , Stanford
A+ , 4.6 , Caltech
A+ , 4.6 , U Chicago
A+ , 4.3 , Dartmouth</p>

<p>A , 4.9 , Harvard
A , 4.8 , Yale
A , 4.6 , Columbia
A , 4.5 , U Penn
A , 4.4 , Duke
A , 4.4 , Brown
A , 4.3 , Northwestern
A , 4.0 , Emory
A , 4.0 , Rice
A , 4.0 , Vanderbilt</p>

<p>A- , 4.7 , UC BERKELEY
A- , 4.5 , Johns Hopkins
A- , 4.5 , Cornell
A- , 4.3 , U VIRGINIA
A- , 4.2 , UCLA
A- , 4.1 , Wash U
A- , 4.0 , Georgetown
A- , 4.0 , GEORGIA TECH
A , 4.2 , Carnegie Mellon</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>What are the grades for the ff schools:</p>

<p>USC
Michigan
Tufts
UNC
Wake Forest
Brandeis
NYU
William & Mary</p>

[tk21769]

<p>RML, go to:
<a href=“http://cllegeprwler.com/rankings/academics/[/url]”>http://cllegeprwler.com/rankings/academics/</a></p>

<p>(after replacing * with the correct vowels)</p>

[RML]

<p>Thanks. What’s the PA score for those schools?</p>

[kwu]

<p>Look at Hawkette’s PA thread.</p>

[alam1]

<p>I believe Tufts is 3.6… NYU 100 % sure is 3.8… also USC is 3.9… UNC is 4.1 … not sure about the others…</p>

[prodigalson]

<p>

@Alexandre

Prodigalson, the problem with attempting to interpret Robert Morse’s PA comment is intended to help public universities is that any such attempt will be countered with equally compelling points. For example:</p>

<p>1) Without the PA, Stanford and MIT will not be ranked among the top 5. In fact, they would probably drop to #10 or so in the nation.

</p>

<p>Actually, if you take the PA out of the equation, Stanford and MIT would drop from #4 to #6. Meanwhile, for example, Michigan would drop out of the top 30 (from #27 to #31).</p>

<p>In fact, without the PA, the biggest gainers would be all private schools and the biggest losers would be all public schools:</p>

<p>

@gadad

Forty-one of the 52 schools (the 51 of the first list - there’s a tie for 50th - plus Yeshiva, who joins the revised list) move no more than two places, up or down. Of the other 11, four go up more than 2 places in the rankings, suggesting that if there’s a strong correlation between rankings and PA, they may be underestimated in the PA:</p>

<p>Yeshiva rises 8 places
Wake Forest rises 5
CWRU rises 3
USC rises 3</p>

<p>Seven schools go down more than 2 places in the rankings, suggesting that they could be overestimated in the PA:</p>

<p>Texas declines 5 places
Georgia Tech decline 4
Penn State declines 4
Michigan declines 4
UVA declines 4
Wisconsin declines 4
Illinois declines 3

</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/851132-peer-reputation-skews-rankings-ok-here-usnwr-rankings-w-peer-assessment-removed.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/851132-peer-reputation-skews-rankings-ok-here-usnwr-rankings-w-peer-assessment-removed.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Tell me again how the PA “favors” privates over publics?!?!</p>

[RML]

<p>^ Thanks. What about the PA for the ff schools:</p>

<p>Notre Dame
Michigan
Brandeis
William & Mary
Georgetown</p>

[tk21769]

<p>^ <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/797962-college-comparison-xxii-usnwr-peer-assessment-ratings.html?highlight=Peer+Assessment[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/797962-college-comparison-xxii-usnwr-peer-assessment-ratings.html?highlight=Peer+Assessment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[RML]

<p>A lot of students often ask what the most prestigious colleges (for undergrad) in America are, so I compiled the data, all of which are relevant to prestige, which often influences decisions of the students when choosing colleges. </p>

<p>As expected, HYPSM performed exemplary well. They are head-and-shoulders superior to the next best performing school, which is Dartmouth College, a highly undergrad focused school. UC Berkeley, the best performing State U in the ranking scored impressively well too. Thanks to its very high PA as well as its impressive salary scale of graduates, UC Berkeley landed in number 7, tied with UPenn, an Ivy League school. </p>

<p>Princeton landed number 1 in this ranking game which is almost purely based on prestige as viewed by various sectors of society, namely: the academics people (30%), employers (30%), college students themselves (20), High School Counselors (10%) and the average people (10%). </p>

<p>Here are the criteria:</p>

<p>Academic’s view
30% - US News Peer Assessment Score
[National</a> Universities Rankings - Best Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings]National”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings)</p>

<p>HS Counselors’ view
10% - USNews HS Counselors Ranking
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-counselor-rank]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-counselor-rank)</p>

<p>College Students’ view
10% - USNews Best Undergrad Teaching
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-ut-rank)
10% - College Power’s College Ranking - Academics
http://**************.com/rankings/academics/</p>

<p>Employers’ Opinions
30% - PayScale
[Top</a> Salary Potential By School Location](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-salary.asp]Top”>Best Universities and Colleges | Payscale)</p>

<p>Average People’s opinions
10% - Gullop
[Harvard</a> Number One University in Eyes of Public](<a href=“Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public”>Harvard Number One University in Eyes of Public)</p>

<p>The results: </p>

<p>*****HYPSM - on a league of their own
Princeton 98.30
Harvard 98.00
Stanford 98.00
Yale 97.40
MIT 96.70 </p>

<p>****Super Elite Group:<br>
Dartmouth 92.60
UC Berkeley 92.00
Penn 92.00
Duke 91.70
Caltech 91.10 </p>

<p>***Elite Group:<br>
Brown 89.10
Chicago 88.40
Cornell 88.20
Notre Dame 88.20
Columbia 87.60
CMU 86.80
Georgetown 86.50 </p>

<p>**
WUStL 84.80
Northwestern 84.60
Michigan 84.50
Hopkins 83.50
Rice 83.40
Virginia 83.30 </p>

<p>*
USC 81.40
Vanderbilt 81.20
UCLA 81.10
Tufts 80.00
Emory 79.40 </p>

<p>NYU 77.90
UNC 76.80
William & Mary 75.90
Wake Forest 73.80
Brandeis 70.80</p>

[Alexandre]

<p>I like this ranking RML. I would probably drop PayScale from the ranking as (1) it is not a reflection of “Employer’s Opinion”, (2) is impossible to measure accurately and (3) does not take career mix and cost of living into consideration. Otherwise, your ranking looks promising.</p>

[RML]

<p>I honestly think that a lot of the best schools in the Midwest are screwed on this ranking due a lot to the payscale data. For some weird reason, the top 3 schools in the Midwest, namely: Chicago, Michigan and Northwestern, performed considerably poorly on the payscale survey. I used it because I don’t have any other source.</p>