<p>Are the problems addressed here (getting into a srat) similar for the guys and fraternities (being as there are a lot more)? Just wondering.</p>
<p>There are guys who did not get into their top choice house, but most guys did get bids somewhere. Most of the time, guys knew where they were going weeks in advance, since a bunch of the houses "balled" guys or gave unofficial early bids to the guys that hung out at their houses. </p>
<p>I think a couple of the smaller fraternities were handing out bids to whomever would take them when their rush week was over. </p>
<p>Plus, guys who didn't join last week can join a house anytime hereafter. The girls can't do that. They have to wait a full year.</p>
<p>Oh, I didn't know that. Sounds good, since...I'm a guy.</p>
<p>Not true, GL. If a girl dropped out of rush, she is eligible for COB. I heard that there are 2 houses that didn't reach quota. No idea if any of the other 3 are not at ceiling and can still accept bids.</p>
<p>you can ONLY give out COBs if you did not make quota. Anyone else cannot give out bids until next year's Rush. Most girls that dropped out of Rush did so because they got cut from every house (probably still not going to receive a bid) or were only left with one house (probably does not want a bid from the only houses eligible for COB [just a guess]) or didn't have the grades (isn't eligible for COB for at least a semester). Also, it is VERY difficult to get into a house as a sophomore.</p>
<p>Rush is so much easier for boys, because you pretty much get told right off the bat if you're getting a bid or not -- none of this waiting around til the last minute, trying to guess if they want you or not stuff. On the other hand, they have to go through pledgeship. So it kind of evens out.</p>
<p>Can someone please tell me what the different sororities at W&L are like? My daughter has been accepted Early Decision and is curious. Thanks!</p>
<p>No. The best thing your daughter can do is to come in with an open mind and get to know the girls in the sorority rather than the image. Every sorority has a stereotype, and every sorority has girls that defy that stereotype.</p>
<p>I totally agree with beautyistruth on that comment. Believe me, your daughter will have more than enough time to learn al she wants about every srat on campus. The best advice I can give her is to try really hard to ignore the stereotypes, and try to really get to know as many girls from each sorority as she can. She should try to make some good friends in each srat, so that no matter what happens come Rush Week, she may be happy wherever she ends up.</p>
<p>The best way to avoid stereotypes is to have recruitment as close to the beginning of school as possible. There will always be some girls who know the reps because someone from their area is already at W&L. But far fewer girls would know the reputations and they would make a decision based on the actives' personalities rather than XYZ has all the public school girls while ABC is all Houston trust-fund babies.</p>
<p>Do the fraternities and sororities at W&L give additional consideration to legacies? I know that someone had to really not click with us in order not be given a bid if they were a legacy.</p>
<p>yes . . . I've heard that some fraternities actually have to write to nationals asking permission to ball a legacy and listing their reasons.</p>
<p>I know with most srats, if they make it to pref night, they have a top spot on the bid list (i.e. if they pref that srat, they are in) and most srats will courtesy cut a PNM legacy they are not planning on taking on the first night. in other words, for most srats, if you are a legacy, if you are asked back on the second and third nights, you are in.</p>
<p>Each NPC sorority defines legacy differently in terms of relatives and each has its own policy of legacy treatment. In my group my D is considered a single legacy with an extra connection due to her mom (direct legacy) and then her maternal aunt (extra connection). In other groups, she would be considered a double legacy due to a mother and aunt.</p>
<p>In terms of legacies getting bids, in many parts of the country there are more legacies going through recruitment than quota openings. The HQs of most groups want the chapter members to have choice in who they bid, but at the same time, at least give a courtesy invite to 2nd round. I'm not sure how many legacies were rushing at W&L but my D said she knew of at least 10.</p>
<p>As for the house I was asked back to, but didn't want to accept a bid from; I really really liked two girls who were sisters there, but other than them, I didn't really connect with any other members I met. I also wasn't friends with any freshmen girls who wanted to pledge there. Of course, I don't think anyone should choose a srat based on where their friends are going, but I wanted to at least know and get along with a few other freshmen pledges before accepting a bid there. After withdrawing from Rush, I was actually invited to a dinner at that house a few weeks later. I knew that, had I wanted to, I could probably get a late bid to that house. I definitely considered it, but in the end, especially once the excitement of Rush week and Big Sis week was over, I decided that the Greek System had lost its appeal for me. I was so disillusioned with the entire system that I didn't want to be a part of it at all, and I politely declined the invitation. The girl who had invited me, who had been one of the girls I really liked from the house (and also held some officer title there), seemed upset with me through the rest of the school year. I think she was hurt that I hadn't accepted her invitation. I guess she was angry that I didn't want to be a part of her "family" when she reached out for me, but I had been similarly hurt when I wasn't invited to join the houses of my other older friends. </p>
<p>I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I do think it would be a good thing to have Rush close to the beginning of the year. That way, girls wouldn't get to know the stereotypes. Also, girls who knew a lot of girls from a certain house (through a sport, club, etc.) wouldn't have an unfair advantage over other girls, who may ft in at that house just as well, yet don't know many girls from there yet due to one reason or another. I really think this change could alleviate a lot of problems. Maybe they could have another, smaller rush in January for girls who hadn't rushed the first time.</p>
<p>At many schools formal recruitment IS held in the early part of fall semester. At many of the big State Universities in the deep South, recruitment is actually held in early August, before school is in session.</p>
<p>When there is formal recruitment in the fall, January rush is considered informal and only the houses that don't have quota can bid girls through informal rush.</p>
<p>Ok, so I wrote a longer reply re rush for my freshman S, but it disappeared when I tried to post it -- argggh. </p>
<p>The short version is that he visited all but one or two of the frats this fall, in response to invitations both formal (dances, parties, cookouts) and informal (football games). He really enjoyed having the time to make friends among his class and to visit frats without much pressure. He concluded that he could be happy at a number of houses, a number of which made it clear he might be welcome if he pursued that interest through rush. In the end, he decided on his best fit and it was mutual, but this choice reflected far too many factors and experiences for him to have been able to make that decision in his first month of school. He also made friends with a number of upperclassmen and freshmen who are in many different houses, and has seen how this carries over with inter-frat events in later years. </p>
<p>In contrast, his best friend who rushed at a big state school at the beginning of school "de-pledged" because it turned out he didn't feel comfortable with enough of the brothers and pledge classmates; he is now planning to transfer. </p>
<p>My S knows girls who joined every one of the sororities, but observed much more "trauma and drama" for them. (Example: "rec letters are only for girls, mom!") In his view, the system is far less stressful for guys because they can visit the houses informally as they choose to over the entire fall term. Even guys who got "balled" from a frat usually knew why (there are consequences to bad behavior) and knew early enough that they could develop options at other houses -- and they received bids elsewhere.</p>
<p>Hm... interesting.</p>
<p>The points mentioned by W&L students, both those who transferred and those who still attend, are quite valid. Here's my personal stance:</p>
<p>W&L has very high rates of sexual assault, alcoholism, depression, and eating disorders (twice the national college average). I am confident that the main factor for these statistics is the Greek system. Not necessarily the Greek system itself, but just how it currently operates.</p>
<p>First, sexual assault. Normal interaction between the sexes simply fails to exist at W&L, especially after Freshman year. Men and women are isolated starting winter term Freshman year, with guys going through eight weeks of cult-like pledgeship. Many are actually forbidden to talk with women. During Sophomore year, men live in Red Square and Davidson Park, while women live in their respective sorority houses over by the football fields (a significant walk away from men's residences). Men and women no longer eat together; instead they eat with their respective Greek organizations. The only interaction between sexes happens at fraternity parties, at which most people are blackout drunk and conversation is vacuous. A lot of your standard drunken college dancing goes on, which either leads to a hookup or a night alone. If the two people end up hooking up, it may not be the healthiest encounter. Last year (when I lived in the frosh dorms in close proximity to girls) I would hear from girls all the time about the "sketchy guy" they hooked up with the night before, and the unwelcome advances he made. I think this happens because guys don't feel emotionally connected to the girls, due to the complete void of everyday interaction. Fraternity living really does promote sexist behavior; girls would be shocked to hear the way guys talk about them behind their backs.</p>
<p>Second, alcoholism. Quite simple, really. From day one there is an overbearing emphasis on alcohol, and many students come to W&L having never taken a sip of alcohol before. With no more parental guidance, they can really go off the deep end. Like it or not, every fraternity's main focus is on partying, and living in that environment can really make people change. I was talking with a freshman the other day who just depledged his fraternity because he was afraid it was going to turn him into an alcoholic. He felt it was extremely hypocritical of the brothers to be screaming at him "you're not worthy to be in [name of fraternity]!" while he had observed their behavior to be completely contradictory to the written goals of the organization.</p>
<p>Third, depression. Pledgeship breeds this. So does not getting into the Greek organization of your choice (esp. for girls). People can become depressed at W&L either as a result of their alcoholism and social status issues, or because they recognize all the unnecessary BS that goes on here. There is so much freaking social climbing; I even fell into the trap last year as I let fellow freshmen's bashing of certain fraternities prevent me from even attempting to meet the brothers. Turns out those houses have some really great guys who I could have been great friends with, but it's impossible now as we have to put all our time and energy into our respective houses.</p>
<p>Finally, eating disorders. This starts from day 1 with the girls who want to do anything they can to get into the sorority of their choice. Appearance is so unnecessarily important at W&L; I don't know how freaking long girls spend on getting dressed up for class, but I personally wouldn't have the time to devote to such an arduous task. Some girls definitely do coke to keep the weight down too. (Definitely not unique to W&L, but something worth bringing up).</p>
<p>So anyway, not the best explanations but I hope they offer some insight. Basically I think the lack of on-campus housing (almost all Jrs and Srs live off campus) and the rigid separation between Greek organizations makes for an unnecessarily isolating, rather than community-oriented, environment. The death of the Speaking Tradition doesn't help either. I came to W&L specifically because it was sold as such a tight-knit community, but unfortunately this is quite far from the truth. It's interesting to note that there were no fraternities until well after Lee's death in the 1900s. I'm confident Lee himself would view W&L's current community as reprehensible and divisive to his goals for the school. </p>
<p>I visited a friend at Colby College in Waterville, Maine for a few days over break and it was completely different, and quite inspiring--there were actually a variety of personality types, all mixing and mingling with each other--jocks, preps, hippies, etc. That's the kind of environment that a small liberal arts school should provide, and W&L definitely recognizes this as there are plans to build more dorms in the next ten years. </p>
<p>W&L can change for the better, but it can only happen if students realize that not ALL change is bad. You can still keep the positive aspects of W&L (eg Speaking Tradition and Honor System) but help to improve the ones in need of help (Greek system). Honestly, getting rid of the Greek system wouldn't be "destroying a piece of W&L history;" it would bring it back to its true defining years with Robert E. Lee as president.</p>
<p>Again, feel I must defend the Greek System. (Note: it's not necessarily that I love the Greek System and hold it up as the paragon of social hierarchies, it's just that I personally have enjoyed my time at such a Greek school, and feel that someone must serve as its advocate).</p>
<p>Morgan, many of the issues you bring up are (as far as I can tell) problems at most if not all schools. I would also like to point out that W&L has a nearly non-existent suicide rate (as opposed to, say, UChicago, a prominent and highly ranked school of roughly the same size where they actually get a day off for Suicide Prevention Day, and last year was the first time someone HADN'T committed suicide).</p>
<p>I agree that the sexes do get seperated starting with pledgeship. However, I have seen and hung out with (in a non-party setting) many of the boys I was friends with Fall Term. It's just more work. I've thrown dinner parties, set up lunch/dinner dates, stopped by houses and generally made an effort to see my friends. They have done the same for me. If you're not willing to make that sort of effort, how good friends can you be? (I would also like to point out that it takes a lot of effort to see ANYONE sophomore year. Everyone I know is completely buried in work).</p>
<p>I would also like to add another reason why I like the Greek System. There are a lot of people, especially guys, that I would not have gotten to know without the Greek System. Last year, for instance I had a couple of really good guy friends who went to different houses. Because I liked and was comfortable with those guys, I would go and hang out at those houses and through that, I met a lot of really cool people who weren't in my circle of friends. Because the houses are so small, it's easy to get to know people. You also meet the girls (srat or independent) who hang out at the houses.</p>
<p>I also met, and made some good friends, through the srat. These were girls who I had no classes with, and who didn't participate in the same clubs as I did, but who had the same sense of humor, or interests, as I did. For instance, one of the girls in my "srat family" turned out into a really good friend of mine, and actually came to visit me over the summer (and trust me, I do not live close to W&L, or to her). I didn't just meet new girls in the srat, I met their friends in other srats, too.</p>
<p>As to sketchy hook-ups, again, happening at most schools. Really. I'm friends with almost every "sketchy" guy I've ever "hooked up" with. It's a thing you can make into a big deal or not, as you choose.</p>
<p>The school definitely does breed alcoholism, but so do most schools. Ditto depression (what isn't depressing about January and the sort of workload most of the students are carrying? I agree pledgeship doesn't help, but I don't think you can blame everything on it). As for eating disorders -- well, I do know a girl or two with an eating disorder, but it is bred from a variety of factors, NONE of which relate to the srat. As to the girls who DO have eating disorders because of their sorority... I think they would probably have that disorder at any school, trying to fit into any sorority / group / team / clique.</p>
<p>I don't necessarily think the Speaking Tradition is on the decline. I smile and say hello to almost everyone I see, and they respond. When my parents came to visit (NOT on parent's weekend) they commented on how nice everyone was, and how often people said hello to them.</p>
<p>I do realize I am one of W&L and the Greek System's biggest proponents on here, but I honestly believe that W&L (and the greek system) is what you make it. I may have mentioned it before, but my roomie, and one of my very best friends is an Independent, and kind of a hippie. She doesn't totally buy into the Greek System, and dropped out of Rush, but she still goes to all the Greek parties (no one cares that she's a GDI; she's never gotten any crap about it) and has fun and enjoys W&L. I understand if W&L is not for you, and I do see some of the downfalls of the school, but I honestly love it (in case you couldn't tell).</p>
<p>Yes, beautyistruth, excellent points. I really wish my CC name was different so I could actually post with anonymity like everyone else, but oh well... </p>
<p>As for Soph year, you are completely correct; for some reason everyone is just busy as all hell. </p>
<p>And yes, all the problems I mentioned are problems at other schools, as I did mention in my post. But we DO have TWICE the national average for eating disorders and sexual assault. I was just stating my hypothesis as to why these problems are MORE prominent at W&L. I definitely did not mean to say that random hookups are unique to W&L, or that they were even inherently bad. Just the way in which my female friends described some of their encounters seemed not too great.</p>
<p>And yes, interaction with the opposite sex in a non-party setting is possible, but does take a lot more effort, as you mentioned. But the fact still remains that there really aren't regular groups of friends like I had in HS that consisted of guys and girls with really different personalities. And it's been so hard to maintain my friendships with my guy friends from last year because of the whole BS of rush. I was the rush chair for my fraternity so I had to spend all my time at my house. And when I go to hang out with my friends at other houses, it's weird because they have their solidly set group of friends (their frat bros) and it's hard not to feel like kind of a third wheel. </p>
<p>I have come to the realization that W&L is just not the place for ME. I just want to be in a place without such a glorified high school environment. Of course cliques are going to exist everywhere, but what I saw at Colby was exactly what I had envisioned my college experience to be like. I need to be in a place where people aren't automatically assigned a label based on their Greek affiliation, and where there is greater diversity (of personality, not necessarily ethnic)--and I don't just mean numbers, I mean actual interaction with different types of people. A better music scene would be nice, too... the novelty of Journey cover bands wears thin rather quickly ;-). Colby students seem to really appreciate the outdoors more than W&L students do, too--and the close proximity to a great ski area is nice. Colby is close to home, I'm a 4th generation legacy, and it just feels right to me. I didn't even apply out of HS because I didn't want to be in an ultraliberal PC environment, but political correctness is a problem at every school, even W&L.</p>
<p>Coming from the northeast, I had no freaking idea what being in a heavily Greek-oriented school would really be like. I can see how some people would love it, and that's fine for them, but my friends back home were quite right when they said I just wasn't made for it :-).</p>
<p>Haha, GreekLife, now that you've identified us, who are you? </p>
<p>First, I am not sure if I am transferring, but if so it would be next fall. </p>
<p>And I'm perplexed at your comment to beautyistruth. Are you implying that as a Pi Phi, she shouldn't defend the Greek system, because of Pi Phi's reputation? That is exactly what is so destructive about the Greek system. </p>
<p>But now that I know your Greek affiliation, beautyistruth, I can see how you may be a little blind to the whole eating disorders etc I have mentioned, because from an outside standpoint I don't see those social insecurity issues being as prominent in your sorority.</p>