<p>
Karp is quite right. We all want what we want, but some of us can afford it and some of us can't. Also, people clearly have different tolerances for indebtedness. But the important thing to remember is that most students can be happy, successful and find that elusive "fit" at a variety of colleges. Successful people are flexible that way.</p>
<p>I have a related question. A few of you have stated that you have consulted rankings of undergraduate majors that have helped you determine the strength of University Xs program relative to other institutions. </p>
<p>Im not familiar with this data but recall seeing the Gourman report about 25 years ago when I was heading to college. My recollection of the Gourman data in the late seventies was that it ranked Michigan exceedingly high in just about all undergrad majors and the other schools fell into place after that. (Hey, I just googled Gourman and I see that a 10th edition is still out there and that Dr. Gourman took a position at UM!). Not a credible source IMHO.</p>
<p>Self-reported information by the institutions regarding professional and graduate school placement statistics are helpful and may indicate general competence in an institutions departments but wouldnt help determining the strength of specific majors.</p>
<p>Finally, having attended different institutions for undergrad and professional degrees, Ive concluded that equating the strength of an undergraduate program with the reputation of its graduate school counterpart may be contrived as well.</p>
<p>Can you point me to some good threads elsewhere on this site re: this issue? I would appreciate hearing how others may have approached the issue. </p>
<p>DD is all over the map as far as her interests a prime candidate for a liberal arts education IMO but has expressed a strong interest in veterinary science and astronomy/astrophysics. Would love to show her the relative strengths of NMSF-friendly Oklahoma and Arizonas vs. their peers in these respective areas.</p>
<p>JHS: I honestly wasn't aware of how much connections would help me in writing. I've been told by other people (possibly incorrectly?) that going to Harvard wasn't really going to help me if I was going into writing. Or perhaps they told me I wasn't going to get rich either way, which is more likely true. </p>
<p>Thank you for all the replies. I was mostly getting scared from reading the avalanche of earlier posts before mine that all detailed the happy stories of people who had turned down expensive ivies for cheaper options and flourished. I'm going to keep my options open, but my parents really want me to go to Harvard, and it feels like in some ways, that this has been the best story in my life so far of everything working out in the end, since I used to stress about not being number 1 or 2 in my class and things like that.</p>
<p>Go to Harvard if you think that you will look back in life and regret it for any reason. After all, it is Harvard.</p>
<p>Go with the dream school. I didn't, went with a full ride at a good school, and surprisingly i'm paying for it now.</p>
<p>I did very well in high school and on my SATS. I was offered full ride scholarships to several universities, including Temple, Kent St., U. Cinci, and Drexel. I also was admitted to several high-ranking schools with half-tuition scholarships, including CMU and Virginia Tech (specifically admitted for architecture at all of the schools). After much debate, I ended up at Drexel.</p>
<p>Now, two and a half years later, I am looking to give up my full-ride scholarship just to get the education that will make the difference. Drexel is not a bad school at all--in fact, its well respected in the Northeast Region for Architecture (ranking 5th this year). However, one thing you need to remember are the "extras" to going to an ivy or better school.</p>
<p>At Drexel, we border UPenn. From just walking through their library or their academic buildings, I can see how much more they get from their education. There is no price too high for the life-shaping connections and networking that ivy league schools provide.</p>
<p>Now, I am in the process of placing transfer applications to better schools, such as Cornell and Columbia. This is literally a 120K choice I need to make, but I can say that I will not regret it. The debt is an investment, and, in my experience, one worth making.</p>
<p>Still no harm in having saved those $$$ & getting your full-ride education initially. We never know how things will work out unless we try & adjust based on what we learn along the way. $120,000 is a LOT of debt if you're going to assume all of it without any help from your folks--please discuss it with them carefully so you all agree on the best course for you & your family. Good luck!</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is as rare as hen's teeth. True merit-only full rides are 1 in a 1000.
[/quote]
I didn't see them mention it being a merit-only full ride anywhere. Did you? I know MANY people getting full rides to local state schools based on financial need.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are simply WAY too many alternative uses (many of them life altering) for $160,000.
[/quote]
And if you had access to that money, for personal use, or even up front AT ALL, then i think a lot more people would make a 160k investment and go to the local state school. But the truth of the matter is, for most families, that money will come from loan, after loan, after loan. (and if you do have access to it, then it's probably not as big of an issue) Many of which you may not even be entitled to if it wasn't towards school. The point is, the money isn't there for you to invest if you turn down the school.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He chose and is now attending what he originally considered his ‘safety’. It is a large state university which is ranked in the top 25 of all the majors in which he is interested.
[/quote]
Is top 25 really a safety? I always thought safety meant, mediocre, affordable, usually in-state state school, etc.</p>
<p>Anyway, I've been facing this very question; while maybe not so well defined, similar non the less. I finally made my choice that attending the top university would be better for one reason. The intellectual stimulation. I may be intelligent enough, but i need to be driven, otherwise i will skim by in a heartbeat. I won't find that kind of motivational pressure/stress at a lesser school. Of course, the occasional teacher will be wonderfull at a lesser school, but what you are paying for at the top is less about the name and more about surrounding yourself by the top minds in the country.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that you can't find it at local schools, it's just more spread out. It's like buying cheap whiskey with less alcohol by volume. :) On the other end of the spectrum, the lower stress and pressure levels may suit certain students. I now that i'm older, i honestly don't see how this decision can be left up to a 17 year old.</p>
<p>You guys are disgustingly greedy. How can you spend 150k on an education instead of going to a free school and giving the money to charity?</p>
<p>
[quote]
You guys are disgustingly greedy. How can you spend 150k on an education instead of going to a free school and giving the money to charity?
[/quote]
and how can you get by in life without being able to read? :) j/k</p>
<p>willpower,
[quote]
How does one quantify the benefit of going to one's "dream" school at full boat when one has a safety that provides a full free ride.
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This statement made me aware that the "free ride" was merit based as they received zero need based aid at the other , "better" school . Hard to imagine that result with just FA and not merit, wouldn't you say? But hey, it could happen. LOL. </p>
<p>I chose my words carefully and precisely to state that merit only full rides were very rare, as I know that need based full rides do happen with greater frequency.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is top 25 really a safety? I always thought safety meant, mediocre, affordable, usually in-state state school, etc.
[/quote]
"Safety" does not mean those things to most of us on the Parent's Board.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
I chose my words carefully and precisely to state that merit only full rides were very rare, as I know that need based full rides do happen with greater frequency.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>We would have had to pay a total of $9K for four years at our flagship state U which included tuition, room & board, laptop and semester abroad. The balance was to be covered by merit aid. Is that considered a full ride? After all, it would cost more (way more!) to feed her at home.</p>
<p>
[quote]
what you are paying for at the top is less about the name and more about surrounding yourself by the top minds in the country.
[/quote]
Oh pull-eeze! Talk about arrogant! You are certainly talking about the name, and to think that all of the brilliant people on the planet are concentrated on ten college campuses is just ludicrous. Sharing air with a collection of people deemed to be smart doesn't make you any smarter yourself. In fact, one could argue that attending a top school with these top people is more insular and does not provide the student with the cross-section of life that he will encounter once he leaves the ivory tower. Just a thought.</p>
<p>
How so? I am curious what differences you can glean from walking by.</p>
<p>By reading your posts I think Harvard is a good fit for you . It doesn't come across that you are arrogant or prestigue conscious but considering it for the "right" reasons. See what offers come in Apr. then visit a few of these schools on accepted student days. You'll have all the info you need then to decide. You mentioned Brandeis and that is an example of an exceptional school but not a HYSP. There are many others.</p>
<p>I think the terms dream, match, safety were created by those that make a living assisting kids, with money to spend for it, to have reasons to push themselves in that regard. Dream is a loaded term and by its very nature assumes there is ONE school that you must have and get into. Nonsense. There are "sure bets" where you may be at the upper end of the pool and others where hundreds of "qualified applicants" get rejected with profiles as good as those that are admitted. With an ED edge or being from Montana applying to a NE school you can see how arbitrary it can get. For our S the question was the degree of difference. There were a couple of state schools that would be less money to begin with and offered half tuition in merit aid, including Delaware, which is not a true state school and has an Honors Program consisting of 15% of their large population, and Honors stats equal those from the IVY range. At any school you'll find kids that are more academically successful. They find one another if it's important to them. Our S chose the Honors Program at BU with half tuition merit scholarship. In his mind there weren't huge variations in his top choices since each had pros and cons. We were willing to pay full ride at a Private school but were also pleased that he made this choice since that 68K or whatever can go toward grad school. It also allowed us to not hesitate about costs when he wanted to do a summer abroad program or take an unpaid summer internship. Many parents of our generation had our children later and with longvity in play and fewer yrs left to work, retirement issues need to be considered. Even though BU was a "sure bet" the stats in their 4 yr colleges show 25% of enrolled students with SATs above 1420/1600. (compare w/ PENN's average of 1409) That's over 4,000 students. Penn State has an unbelievable Honors Program and these kids have enormous opportunities, superb dorms, and preferences in many areas. Many private colleges that are high quality but a notch "below" the IVYs have additional programs that attract top students like accelerated medical, joint degrees with other schools, 5 yr. Masters tracks. Surf around the web sites and you'll note that about 90% of faculty at these schools received their Ph.Ds at Ivy level schools and I doubt they are any "lesser" at teaching in a non Ivy setting. If you walk along a campus like PENN you'll feel the intellectual stimulation in the air. Its at hundreds of other colleges as well but perhaps not as obvious on the surface. We value education and lived within our means so that we could send our kids to private colleges if that was best for them. On the other hand we weren't so blinded by a name brand to not see that there are a huge number of terrific schools and with the current level of competition many that don't get into HYSP or choose otherwise are bringing up the profile of the student body at dozens of these up and comers.</p>
<p>Our philosophy is that you only get one chance to live your life. Our daughter's safety school would most likely have given a full ride. This compares with roughly $44K a year for the University of Notre Dame. What cinched it for us was her logic she expressed to us: "What if I go to a school because it is cheaper, and then, ten years later, am making very good money. No matter how much money I make then, I can never go back and experience being an 18 year-old undergrad at the University of Notre Dame."</p>
<p>It's about more than money. It's about more than how it looks on a diploma. It is, in her case, about a lifelong dream.</p>
<p>If you don't start living your dreams at the age of 18, when do you start?</p>
<p>I have tried to stay away from this thread because I know there is no way to determine "the best route" for the optimum results. In addition, some of the statements made just make me really, really angry and I start to see red. Yet...here I am...</p>
<p>My son chose the full ride merit at our top 50 state u. honors over the ivy and other top schools with half merit and more. Why?</p>
<p>His reason in one word: "undergrad". He is 17 yrs. old and is a science/engineering guy. He wants to learn something about everything as he tries to find the direction that interests him most. There is so much basic stuff to learn at this point and he feels he can learn it just as well at State U. Faster pace, more indepth at the ivy? Maybe...maybe not. After all he is a bright kid and can learn more if he wants. He is also thrilled with his ability to use all his AP credit to bypass the dreaded humanities courses that he absolutely loathes. He reads the course listings like a kid in a candy store....eyes bigger than his belly, too many interesting math/science courses to fit into 4 years as it is. It is a large state u. with so much exciting, varied research going on that it is hard for him to pick. To be able to do this at no cost is beyond his wildest dreams. He feels honored and no more worthy than the guy sitting next to him.</p>
<p>The honors college offers incredible perks. Too numerous to mention here.</p>
<p>Will he learn $45,000 more knowledge in 30 weeks at the Ivy. No.</p>
<p>He will learn life lessons, grow up, become the man he will become in the next four years just as well at State U as he will at the Ivy.</p>
<p>Stellar peer group? Young people of integrity and moral character are found on every college campus in the world. They will find one another and thrive and grow together.</p>
<p>Well said SAX. One could say that for some kids that are a little too intense a stellar peer group could be one that is more social and balanced and may not need to be top in the class. When I see teens that have thousands of posts on CC over several yrs one has to wonder what kind of youth they are experiencing. There is no question in my mind that most of the top schools offer some superior perks but they miss some as well. There are many well balanced poeple on the board that choose the IVY route and its done in such a way that I applaud their choice. Its right for them. Still, other comments make me cringe as it harkens to the "old boy network" mentality, even if it isn't all old boys anymore and reflects an elitism that is a remnant of the US WASPy British roots and less reflective of the world we live in and will involve into in our global and diverse future. These topics tend to bring out comments that reflect the class struggle issues that are still present in some segments of society. I have friends that I knew for a long time before it came out that they are IVY grads, they down play it, and others that somehow find a way to let it slip in the first meeting. Character can be enhanced at any school just as arrogance can be learned as well.</p>
<p>I'm a bit confused about the costs mentioned by the original poster. 4 years and 80,000 in loans is Rutgers, not Harvard. That would be more like 200k. A family with one child and 100-150k income isn't going to get FA in most cases.
Not the original poster's subject, but the thread drift has pointed out the narrow life of many kids. Take it from an old smartypants, the world is full of people who are amazing, interesting and had low SAT scores.</p>
<p>It really comes down to what works for each child and each family. One other point that I have seen over and over again is the value of name recognition in the job market. I have seen many cases where between two applicants the one from a school known for a particular field got the job. Maybe not right but it certainly happens.</p>
<p>
dd, if you don't me asking, how did you reach that conclusion? What school and how many full rides do they give a year? What are the average stats of those receiving full rides at that school? Have you looked at their EC's?</p>
<p>Other than NMF free-rides or other statistically automatic full rides (1500, top 1%), I don't know how anyone can make that statement. I think people fool themselves badly thinking that major scholarships at good schools are just there for their Ivy accepted kids to pluck off the tree at any merit aid granting school. It just ain't so. </p>
<p>Y'all don't need to keep sending this message. Some folks might start believing it's true (and to their detriment). </p>
<p>It is far,far easier to get into an HYPSM school than it is to get one of the tiny number of merit full-rides.</p>