SAT/gpa combinations and various schools

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
1

<p>Can I first say that this entire SAT process is such a complete farce. My daughter has always scored very high on standardized tests when it was at least theoretically an even playing field and not comparing kids who've spent weeks and weeks preparing to those who did no more than take a weekend bootcamp and hope for the best.</p>

<p>Health issues last Spring prevented my daughter from taking the test until this October. We were hoping for something above 1700 at which point we thought it would be "good enough." However, I registered her for the November date just in case. She ended up at 1570 with the really poor score being the multiple choice portion of the writing. It is not that surprising given she did not spend any time memorizing vocabularly and she is a modest reader at best.</p>

<p>Her 14 schools she is applying to are -- Rutgers, BU, CMU, Julliard, Hartt, U of Arts, NCSA, Syracuse, Ithaca, Otterbien, NYU, Depaul, CCM and Purchase. </p>

<p>Her gpa is 3.4 at very strong NJ public high school. I know her gpa and SAT combination is definitely a negative when it comes to NYU though given the number of kids they take it would still seem to me that if she gives a very strong audition it is not an impossible scenario. Anyone think differently based on more insight into the NYU process? It is probably a bit of a negative for BU as well though I've heard if they like an applicant, they can push admissions more than at NYU and her scores don't seem completely out of line with weaker kids admitted to BU.</p>

<p>Anyone think there is any reason to be concerned about her SAT/gpa combination at any of the other schools on her list. As far as I know, academics are essentially irrelevant at CMU, Julliard, Hartt, U of Arts, NCSA, Depaul, Otterbein, Purchase and CCM. For Rutgers, Ithaca and Syracuse, it has never been quite clear to me how much academics weigh in but her numbers don't seem so out of line with the general admissions that I would think it would be an issue if the acting programs want her. Be interested to hear if anyone thinks differently. </p>

<p>As far as the test itself, it would seem like a no brainer to have her take it again. My thought was to try to get a tutor to work with her on just the multiple choice writing portion since that seems like the part where her score could be raised. Would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on strategies. I think she is better served spending most of her time working on monologue prep since that is still the biggest key so I'd like to have her SAT prep be as targeted as possible.</p>

2

<p>The SAT/ACT is daunting, I agree. My D (not a performer) wanted to attach a note to her very high SAT marks stating that she never took an SAT prep course, since she knew kids who took multiple SAT courses all through high school. She didn’t think it was fair to compare her scores to theirs! </p>

<p>BU - I will tell you that my S met with an admissions officer from BU a few weeks ago, and asked her point-blank if he did well on the BFA audition, will that weigh more than his academics, as far as getting into BU. She said, no - it is 50-50. So you could ace the audition, but if your grades/scores are not what they want, you will not squeak by on the strength of the audition.</p>

<p>I will also tell you this - S took the SAT in May and got a similar score to your D’s. He took it again Oct 6 with no prep at all, but with the experience of the first test. He went up also 200 points! It is a crap shoot! He may have gotten easier questions, or just questions he knew. He may have just felt more comfortable because he did it before. Who knows? I think it is smart to have her do them again, but for BU, the November date may be too late - you should check the website, or call admissions.</p>

3

<p>Unless things have changed at Boston University, the audition is a more important factor in admissions than academics. </p>

<p>I’m not sure whether an admissions officer would tell you that. Speaking to someone authoritative in the school of theatre, like Paolo DiFabio or a faculty member, might be advisable if it is a matter of concern.</p>

4

<p>After seeing many posts on CC (from experienced students/parents) about the audition being more important at BU than the academic piece, I have to back up Marbleheader on this one–this past summer, all of the theater folks at BUSTI very much emphasized to the kids that their academic qualifications would matter a LOT. I got the distinct impression that this was indeed a change from the past. We heard this from the acting faculty and from the design/tech program director as well, and every BUSTI kid or parent I’ve talked to had the same experience. The word was, we can “pull” you if your qualifications are in the ballpark, but not if you’re really below normal admissions standards. Just…be aware. </p>

<p>Re: the rest of your daughter’s list, ActingDad, you might want to check about Syracuse. </p>

<p>Re: re-taking the test–my son just got his second set of scores today, too–one score went way up, the other two went way down! Thank goodness most of the schools “superscore”! Marbleheader, so glad to hear that your S’s went up so much…that is AWESOME. I’m not particularly optimistic about the ACT this weekend, but what the heck, it’s worth a try. ;)</p>

5

<p>If you are referring to Mason Gross, when you say Rutgers, then you are correct in surmising that they aren’t very concerned about GPA and test scores. Rutgers College of Arts & Sciences does take them into account, but your daughter can probably get in as a NJ resident.I’d say that the SATs are low for BU and NYU. The other schools on your list weigh the audition much more heavily than academic transcripts. DePaul has a minimum SAT/GPA requirement: your daughter’s grades are well above it, and I’m pretty sure that her scores would qualify. I don’t know what academic standards Syracuse and Ithaca set. You should probably study their websites.</p>

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<p>LOL, Times3! I get the impression from the back bedroom, that since the SATs went up, the heck with the ACTs!!! I’m having a hard time getting through to S that he could get a nice score on that if it’s so different from the SATs.</p>

<p>And don’t fret over the new scores - like you said, that is what the superscore feature is all about! Colleges want these kids to be able to get admitted!</p>

7

<p>ActingDad, DePaul is test optional now. As you already know the story of my D, I’ll spare you the refresher, but she has submitted her DePaul application going test optional. As for CMU, the admissions person at our info session in Atlanta, said if the theatre school wanted a student, they called admissions and asked three questions. Did the kid graduate? Did they take SAT/ACT (note I didn’t mention scores)? Is the kid a felon? If the answers were yes, yes, and no then said kid was in. LOL! Take that with a grain of salt, but I think it’s pretty accurate.</p>

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<p>MarbleHeader – it would be nice to think that the super score feature has something to do with colleges wanting our kids admitted but I doubt that is the case. It strikes me that the only point from the college perspective about the super score feature is that it allows them to show higher scores for the kids they admit. </p>

<p>Stagemum – yes, I was referring to Mason Gross. Mason Gross does say kids still have to be admitted to the college but I don’t get any sense of that being a rigorous exercise.</p>

<p>Times3 – that would be a shame for the BU program if pressure from admission over stats keeps out talented kids that were admitted in the past. None of the other consortium schools would knock out a kid that the acting department wants because of academic stats. Not a lot my daughter can change at this point with respect to academics. I hired a tutor today to work with her for 3 hours on the grammar/vocabulary piece. She’ll take the test again and see what happens. I take it no one really knows what exactly constitutes “you’re really below normal admissions standards.”</p>

9

<p>Acting Dad - Unless Mason Gross’s admissions process has changed from last year, you do not have to be accepted into Rutgers College. You have to fill out an RU application, and check off MGSA as the division you are applying to, before setting up your audition (there is an additional fee). The RU application allows you to choose up to three schools within the university for one fee, and so there’s nothing to lose by applying to Arts & Sciences as well (MGSA actually recommends it). Montclair State requires that you first be accepted into the college before you can audition for the Acting BFA.</p>

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<p>Good luck with the tutor, ActingDad. I hope it helps - as I said, the whole scores thing is daunting. I do believe though - and this is totally my own coping mechanism - that colleges want to work with kids in a positive way. The example that Times3 gives is a good one - since BU now seems more focussed on gap/scores they are at least telling the kids about it and stressing that they work harder on their school work, so they can get in!</p>

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<p>Thanks Stagemum – maybe I misheard when we did the tour of MG last Spring.</p>

<p>Marbleheader – I do think the acting programs themselves certainly want to work with the kids in a positive way and the BU program certainly doesn’t want to have to say no to a kid they would otherwise want to have in the program because the SAT score doesn’t measure up. (As an aside, I’ll be thrilled to hear the first person explain how the math score on the SAT is reflective a student’s ability to thrive and succeed in a BFA program) My comment was about why it is that schools do super scoring of SAT results. I don’t think it helps the kids. All it does is put more pressure to take and retake the test because that is what everyone else is doing. Super scoring I’m sure came from the schools in order to permit them to report higher scores. Once some schools started doing it, everyone else needed to do it or they would be reporting lower scores for the incoming class than the ones that were doing it. Statistically, a kid who takes the test once and scores 1800 ought to be viewed higher than a kid who takes the test 5 times and has an 1800 because the best scores of pieces of the 2nd, 3rd and 5th test also equals 1800. Thus, it seems to me this is not about finding the kid who is most able to do the work but simply the schools wanting to report the highest possible score.</p>

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<p>Ah - now I see what you are saying. That goes back to my daughter’s thinking - since she did get the higher mark first, and others took the test many times (with SAT classes in-between) and finally got their marks up to hers.</p>

<p>Frustrating for sure! I have a friend who also insists that the super score feature is just a way for the College Board to make money - it is a business after all - by having everyone take the test twice.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, it has become an entire culture, and won’t change any time soon. At least not for our seniors!</p>

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<p>I don’t disagree but you can make the same argument on the artistic side can’t you? I mean is the kid who has been coached for a year on two monologues prior to auditions, attended prestigious summer programs, and had acting training beyond the high school level really more talented than the stand-out high school drama student who goes to the library and chooses a monologue? How is that a fair comparison? Heck, we know a girl who learned her monologue on the plane. She’s not untalented at all but was clueless about the process and only got into one less selective school. </p>

<p>The truth is most of these programs don’t care about GPA and test scores but you have a couple on your list where it does matter. My daughter was waitlisted at Syracuse with very high scores and at BU they also told us grades matter and that as far as the audition goes it is probably a little naive to think they are looking for potential. She’ll be fine for Ithaca.</p>

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<p>Kids have been taking the SAT multiple times for years and years. Conventional wisdom is not to take them more than three times, but most kids I know take 'em at least twice; common practice. I’ve always heard that the statistical concept of “regression toward the mean” does apply, by the way–it’s not the typical scenario that kids get better and better every time they take them (my daughter got a perfect verbal score on the PSAT and we all knew she’d never get THAT again–and she didn’t!). Taking them more than once lets kids get used to the format and learn to pace themselves; their understanding improves just developmentally between junior and senior year; and for many kids, they haven’t even learned some of the math content on the first administration. </p>

<p>Despite all the frenzy, I’m confident that our kids and the right “fit” programs will find each other. A school that cares a lot about scores may not be a school where your child would be happy. I’ve known kids who turned down more “prestigious” colleges because they didn’t want to be surrounded by classmates who were obsessed with their own SAT scores. </p>

<p>Re: Flossy’s observations, I’ve seen similar situations to the girl you describe who “learned her monologue on the plane.” We have a great drama teacher at our school who puts up wonderful shows, but several of her students in the past have chosen to kind of stay off her radar, decided on their own to apply to acting programs, and didn’t research the process or prepare–and didn’t get in anywhere. I don’t think that’ll happen to anyone who’s been writing on this thread, regardless of SAT scores! :)</p>

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<p>Perhaps the most insidious thing about the SAT is the way that the company that administers it, The College Board, solicits information about your child’s interests, etc. The company then sells that information, together with score profiles, to many colleges and universities, which then send out recruitment letters. There are several problems here. First, College Board is, essentially, making the students into commodities to be sold. Second, if you are not careful, College Board becomes the definer of the student’s interests and preferences. Don’t let this happen. Don’t let College Board tell you what your child is. Third, the colleges and universities tailor specific recruitment letters to raise expectations of admission, and thus the number of applications, in order to drive down their acceptance rates and look more competitive in the various national rankings. It is a racket.</p>

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<p>The entire standardized testing thing is disgusting, from elementary school through high school. As a teacher, I know full well that one test on one day does not determine a student’s success. (or a superscored test over a few days) I’ve seen too many students test very poorly but is the kind of student every teacher wants in her classroom. On the flip side, I’ve seen kids who test much, much higher than what they put forth in the classroom. I would love to see standardized tests vanish completely, but that will never happen.</p>

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<p>I’m both a teacher and an SAT tutor. Here’s my two cents. I totally agree that the whole testing thing is a farce, but it is what it is; it’s not going away any time soon. Other tests can also be viewed as a farce too btw–even the idea of trying to gauge whether an 18 year old student is ‘talented’ in a 2 minute audition for a 4 year program is, to my mind, a bit farcical. But we have to deal with the reality. And the reality is that it never hurts to have a higher SAT score. Your D’s scores are pretty weak. It may not matter, but it may. My own son was actually rejected from BU ACADEMICALLY and his scores were quite high, nearly 2300, and top 3% GPA (still don’t understand who he was rejected but colleges are simply not predictable). </p>

<p>Tutoring can help a lot. As a tutor, I typically raise scores at least 100/test, often more. Wealthy families pay for tutors upwards of a year in advance. I would definitely advise your D to take another test. Contrary to what many people think, studying vocab words out of context doesn’t really improve your scores. I’ve actually never had my students do vocab flash cards. What improves your scores - besides being a voracious reader naturally - is practicing, feedback, practicing, feedback. If I were to have unlimited time with her, I"d have her do 5 practice tests (full tests). Before that, I’d work with her one section at a time to help her with test taking strategies as well as content. Each time I’d have her examine where she went wrong and why, and then self correct. </p>

<p>Given that her time is limited, I guess the best bet would be for her to practice as much as possible before the test without driving herself crazy. Whatever she can do is better than nothing, even if it’s 10 minutes a day. If you can afford a good tutor, you can hire one for once a week. You can also do one of those Programs. But if you can’t afford a tutor or find one, you can simply buy College Board and/or PRinceton Review practice books and have her practice and self reflect, and practice again. Towards the end, she should time herself to make sure she’s in the time limit. I’d take the attitude that if she raises her scores, great, and if not, it’s not much time & money invested.</p>

<p>Best of luck with this. It stinks, but that’s how it is. To your original question then, yes, I think she should retake, and yes, I think she should have a tutor if you can find a good one and can afford it. But don’t drive yourself crazy. Best of luck!</p>

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<p>Flossy – it is a fair point about whether its fair to compare kids who have had different levels of artistic training. However, as to the girl who learned her monologue on the plane, you do have to question the level of passion for doing this. Of course, my daughter has had the summer camps, the acting lessons, and the summer programs so I’m not viewing that part as unfair! On the other hand, these things also flow from a clear direction on her end from as young as eight that this is what she wanted to do with her life. While I’m sure there are many families who would not for financial or other reasons support these things, a smilarly motiviated kid to my daughter would have a pretty good shot a convincing a fair percentage of parents to support at least some of what we’ve done. She drove the bus on these things with us. There is no theater history in either my wife or I. I’d have made her a basketball player if it was up to me. </p>

<p>Connections – was your son a BFA acting student? Are you saying BU acting wanted him but the school would not admit him with a 2300 and a top 3% gpa? Or was he applying just for a non acting program? As for what we ended up doing, I hired a tutor to work with her for two lessons of 90 minutes and she is taking the test again in November. I appreciate all your advice on practice tests but it is not happening. She does a ninety minute lesson each week with her acting audition coach on monologues and easily spends 8-10 hours a week on reading additional material and working on these monologues. There is no issue with her motivation on this level but SAT practice tests?! It has been hard enough getting all the essays out of her. I am not sequeezing something else out of her. I am just going to have to trust the advice that she’ll be in the place she belongs. She has gotten such great feedback on the artistic piece of this over the years including from her current audition teacher who I have CC posters to thank for recommending to us. We’ll just have to hope that being among the most prepared for the monologues will be better than being among the most prepared for the SATs!</p>

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<p>Maybe your daughter needs to start looking at other options.</p>

<p>Maybe she needs to sit down and think about where she wants to be in 10, 20 years, and then find out about people who are now at that place. How did they get there?</p>

<p>If she is a “modest reader at best”, then a very academic environment may not be right for her. Maybe she should be looking at programs that emphasize the artistic over the academic. Also remember that you do NOT need a degree to become an actor. Many many actors have NO degree at all. There are also training programs that do not give out degrees.</p>

<p>KEVP</p>

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<p>I agree with connections that taking practice tests is the best test prep and my kids both did that and raised their scores considerably by doing so.</p>