<p>This change is unfair to North Carolina students and will hopefully be repealed soon. Here is a link with more information:</p>
<p>I encourage all North Carolina residents to contact the University and their General Assembly representatives about this.</p>
<p>Twenty-five full merit scholarships will be offered to out-of-state students by UNC-CH this year which will cover tuition, fees, room, and board. The cost of these will be subsidized by the taxpayers of North Carolina. The in-state recipients of these same scholarships will only receive an amount covering 43-65% of these expenses as they stand this school year, even though they are equally qualified and their parents pay North Carolina taxes to support the University. Furthermore, as these expenses increase, the residents' scholarships will cover less, while the out-of-state students will be fully endowed. Does anyone else think there's something wrong with this picture?</p>
<p>repealed...that'd be no fun...for me (if i'm lucky) at least...</p>
<p>I do not really see why some people got so excited in a negative way about scholarships for out-of-state students at UNC-Chapel Hill. </p>
<p>We are talking only about 25 excellent students (out of 4000 freshmen) whose presence would greatly benefit UNC.
1. Thier scholarship funds are NOT taken from in-state students, so there is no loss there. UNC still has about 150 scholarships for in-state students.
2. Scholarship funds for OOS were also NOT increased since the last year, so there are no extra spendings. </p>
<p>Why is the call for action now? </p>
<p>I would understand if you asked for more money for deserving in-state students, but to spread justice by taking something away .... </p>
<p>It is really beyond my understanding!</p>
<p>I think most people are upset because in-staters don't get the full ride, even though they're paying taxes.</p>
<p>SoccerGrl010, you're exactly right. We are in-state, and my daughter was just notified that she's a Carolina Scholar, which is a wonderful deal, but not as wonderful as if we lived OOS. I think it's good to try to recruit strong OOS students, because I think it helps UNC's reputation as a national university, but I think the disparate treatment of OOS and in-state scholarship recipients sends an odd message. Somehow it seems they'd rather put more effort in convincing an OOS student to choose UNC over HYPS rather than trying to convince an instate student to make the same choice. (Yes, I know it has to do with the different sources of funding for the OOS and instate scholarships, but it just doesn't seem quite right.)</p>
<p>TanCat: I think it goes back to some of the earlier posts. If you look at awards like Carolina Scholars; Davie; Pogue...these are solely academic awards (at least I think that's correct), and they are given to both in-state and out of state students who, presumably have the same qualifications. Now..suddenly, these awards will become full scholarship (full freight) awards for the out of state student, while this same scholarship for the in-state student remains the same. You must understand that these are academically comparable students, being recognized with the same award; however, for the in-state student, it is still only a partial scholarship. </p>
<p>The other issue is, that when this legislation was first announced (and explained to the public), it was supposed to impact only full scholarship recipients across the UNC system. As such, the students aren't really <em>directly</em> impacted, as they were always awarded a full scholarship--whether in-state or out-of-state. Indirectly, this is a positive change for the students as it impacts their respective foundations/organizations that fund their scholarships. So, in effect, the respective foundations can afford to either make more scholarships, or use the funds saved in other positive ways for both their programs and their students. People understood that, and though it's a rather transparent piece of legislation that, in effect, gets around the 18% cap on out of state students, everyone accepted it.</p>
<p>But this new interpretation of this legislation, which will now impact what were always partial scholarships is questionable for a few reasons: (1) As stated above, it just seems unfair to in-state students; (2) Since the change will be for the Class of 2010 and forward, it also seems rather unfair to the current Carolina, Davie, Pogue Scholars, both in-state and out-of-state. Think about that for a minute. (3) And while the total number of these awards may not be substantial, the cost--such as it is--will be borne by NC taxpayers. Not a major burden, obviously, but the (seemingly new) interpretation of this legislation appears as a rather direct affront to the in-state students, and most especially to the ones who are receiving less than their peers with regard to these scholarships noted above. </p>
<p>I understand and appreciate your statement that one shouldn't spread justice by taking something away. Perhaps the best recourse is to make those full scholarships, for both in-state and out of state students. Again, though, the burden will ultimately fall on the NC taxpayers. </p>
<p>Personally, I'd rather see a more directly honest appeal to simply raise the cap on out of state students--by the same small percentage.</p>
<p>nceph: Yes, nicely put, and stated so much more efficiently than I managed to do! And congratulations to your daughter!</p>
<p>Certainly these are talented students who will be an asset to Carolina. However, there are many equally and even better qualified resident students, but not one of these will be given a full merit scholarship by the University. The stats for the in-state and out-of-state recipients of these scholarships are similar. </p>
<p>The reason the University is able to offer these full scholarships is because our General Assembly members passed a law in August allowing UNC to count out-of-state students who receive full scholarships as residents. This means that N.C. taxpayers subsidize each of these 25 scholarships, as well as the full scholarship athletes, Moreheads, and Robertson's Scholars given to non-residents, by about $14,000 each. </p>
<p>Congratulations, nceph, on your daughter's scholarship!</p>
<p>Another important point to consider is that UNC-CH is already the third best value for non-residents among all U.S. public universities according to the Feb. issue of Kiplingers magazine. The schools that are 1 & 2 are State University of New York College at Geneseo and State University of New York at Binghamton.</p>
<p>Unfortunately as I stated in an earlier post, this has definitely opened Pandora's box. Every single point that has been stated is certainly valid and full of merit.</p>
<p>The powers to be at UNC have been trying to find a way to increase the number of out of state students for a variety of reasons. More revenue, higher scores/stats which help rankings and also as a means of increasing geographic diversity of the overall student population. This last point should not be lost on instate parents because it is really a positive thing from a strategic planning point of view.</p>
<p>Although many of the posters here like jack and others have wonderfully talented bright children who were able to recognize UNC for what it is; an outstanding education at a great price,all it takes is a look back at UNC posts over the last two years to see that many other very bright kids were not able to get past the "continuation of high school" aspect that an overwhelming in-state majority can pose to them. UVA's OOS percentage is a little over 30% and Michigan's is I believe in excess of 40%. Both schools consistently top UNC in USN&WR and diversity of student body is a key contributor.</p>
<p>Chancellor Moeser's stated goal is to make UNC the top public institution in the country. He knows that he'll need to keep more of the state's best at home to accomplish that, and recognizes that increasing the percentage of OOS students is just one of the things that can contribute to that end. In a survey sent by the admissions department to top instate students who have opted for other schools and turned down admission to UNC, diversity of student body is the number one reason stated in their response.</p>
<p>I've seen many high scoring, talented kids opt for other state schools, UVA, UGA among them because of this issue. UNC is trying to find ways to keep them home which would also increase their scores, stats and rankings because more of the best of the best will want to stay home.</p>
<p>This policy change has somehow found a way to offend many. I don't know if there was anything they could have done to make everyone happy.</p>
<p>jack makes a very strong point:</p>
<p>"it also seems rather unfair to the current Carolina, Davie, Pogue Scholars, both in-state and out-of-state."</p>
<p>I can understand the frustration of in state parents who, because of previous award levels being maintained, don't get the same overall benefit now being enjoyed by OOS students. On the other hand, how does an OOS parent of a current Davie or Carolina Scholar feel when they find find out that all incoming OOS winners benefit far more greatly than their child does? </p>
<p>Whew! You have to ask yourself if they did all the possible permutations before coming up with this new plan? They could not have possibly anticipated the discord it has caused.</p>
<p>Carolina has a diverse student population, and with the transient nature of this country there are many resident UNC students who grew up in other states and even other countries. I dont see how the fact that a student has a drivers license from another state is going to enrich the University by itself. There seems to be a perception that a University must have a high percentage of out-of-state students to be excellent. However, UC-Berkeley only enrolls 9% out-of-state students and is ranked the top public university by U.S. News. UCLA only enrolls 5% out-of-state and is ranked 3rd.</p>
<p>I doubt that a student who doesnt want to go to UNC because too many of their high school peers attend there, or who want to be farther from home, will think any differently about it if there are a few hundred more out-of-state students attending.</p>
<p>eadad: Yes, I agree that embracing diversity--in all aspects--is a good thing in general, and increasing geographic diversity, in particular, is a positive for UNC. However, this sure seems like a convoluted way to go about it. While some of those scholarships could possibly be increased for in-state, too, because of the origin of the funds, others (I assume) cannot, for much the same reason. </p>
<p>And, yes, while you are correct that geographic diversity (lack of) is a possible factor in attracting top in-state students, the lack of merit scholarships has actually been cited as a number one reason in-state students choose to go elsewhere. That was the impetus behind the new merit scholarships (60 total) instituted this fall. Here's a quote from James Lucido, UNC's vice provost for admissions and enrollment management, that he made in March 2005, announcing these scholarships:</p>
<p>"For years, these students have told us that other schools have awarded them merit scholarships and it was the number 1 reason why they didn't choose Carolina," Lucido said. "The University won't win over everyone," he said, "but even a $2500 award might persuade some students." </p>
<p>It seems that they are making a real commitment to fund more merit based scholarships, too, without reducing need-based aid. Hopefully, this will all work out positively for everyone involved.</p>
<p>I think one of the reasons I have sort of mixed feelings about the in-state/OOS scholarship situation is that I think an increase in OOS students would make UNC more appealing to my daughter. I understand that many in-state students have lived in other states and countries, and certainly that makes the student population more diverse than it might seem just from listing the current NC hometowns, but it still won't compare to the diversity that one would find at HYPSM and other schools that draw more from a national talent pool. I would be interested in knowing how the geographical breakdown of the top 10% of enrolled students or perhaps the honors program is. Is the top perhaps more diverse than the middle or bottom? Geographical diversity is, of course, only one factor for my daughter and probably most students faced with this choice. </p>
<p>I will probably start a new thread once April rolls around to get more input on the rest of the factors, such as whether students who turned down HYPSM have regrets about their decisions, and whether the top 10% of the entering class at UNC is essentially the same caliber as students at HYPSM. If the answers to those questions are "no" and "yes" respectively, that will certainly tip the decision in favor of UNC.</p>
<p>I think that it is important to remember that UNC-CH is a public university that was created to educate the people of North Carolina and is largely supported by state taxes. Therefore, it will never be the same type of university as an ivy league, even if the best students in the country choose to attend. For that reason alone it will not be the top choice for many students. I think the University should strive to be an excellent public university that keeps its primary mission in focus rather than trying to be all things to all people.</p>
<p>I am sure that there are many top N.C. students who would not choose to attend Chapel Hill because a few more out-of-state students are there, but who would be easily persuaded by a full scholarship, as jack pointed out.</p>
<p>logosprincipal:
"I dont see how the fact that a student has a drivers license from another state is going to enrich the University by itself. There seems to be a perception that a University must have a high percentage of out-of-state students to be excellent."</p>
<p>Although having a high number of out-of-state students does not inherently make a university better, one of the many goals of any university is to admit the best students that it possibly can. For any "good" university in any state, if it was decided that the freshman class shall be 50% in-state and 50% out-of-state, the out-of-staters will be better qualified (however you wish to define that) than the in-staters because:</p>
<p>a) The national pool of talented students will be always be greater than a pool of talented students from any given state.
b) There will be greater competition among the out-of-staters than the in-staters, simply because more out-of-staters will apply.</p>
<p>"The in-state recipients of these same scholarships will only receive an amount covering 43-65% of these expenses as they stand this school year, even though they are equally qualified and their parents pay North Carolina taxes to support the University."</p>
<p>I do believe that both out-of-state and in-state recepients of the same scholarship should receive equal benefits. However, I would like to remind you that previous to this development, for however many years that the Carolina and Davie scholarships have existed, the in-state students have been getting a better deal since their scholarship covers more than tuition while the out-of-state scholarship did not even cover all of tuition.</p>
<p>"I am sure that there are many top N.C. students who would not choose to attend Chapel Hill because a few more out-of-state students are there, but who would be easily persuaded by a full scholarship, as jack pointed out."</p>
<p>Why are some of the top NC students choosing not to attend Chapel Hill? Probably because they got a better deal elsewhere, in another state. And then the parents of the people in that other state can complain that they have to subsidize the NC student's scholarship.</p>
<p>"I think that it is important to remember that UNC-CH is a public university that was created to educate the people of North Carolina and is largely supported by state taxes. Therefore, it will never be the same type of university as an ivy league, even if the best students in the country choose to attend...I think the University should strive to be an excellent public university that keeps its primary mission in focus rather than trying to be all things to all people."</p>
<p>Shouldn't UNC strive not to just be a great NC university that serves North Carolinians, and rather be a great NATIONAL university that serves the whole country? I'm sure that if any high level administrator at UNC had a magic wand that would magically make UNC an Ivy-League-ish school, they would most certainly wave it.</p>
<p>We also have to remember that these out-of-state scholarships benefit only a small percentage of the total number of out-of-staters at UNC (as TanCat said, "We are talking only about 25 excellent students (out of 4000 freshmen) whose presence would greatly benefit UNC."). The rest of the out-of-state students still have to pay the $17,000 tuition, which is going up much more quickly than the in-state tuition (the Board approved a ~$250 increase for in-staters this year, but a ~$1300 increase for out-of-staters). The DTH's recent headline read "Out of State, Out of Mind"...as the university plans to increase out-of-state tuition according to MARKET forces.</p>
<p>(wow that was long...just typed this up at the Student Union)</p>
<p>I dont know how the non-resident students compare with the top 18% of residents at UNC-CH; that would be an interesting comparison. I do know that for the 100 in-state students who received scholarships that were also offered to out-of-state students by UNC-CH last year, the average SAT score is 1478. In comparison, the average of the 24 out-of-state recipients is also 1478. This would suggest a greater depth of top students among the residents. </p>
<p>Im sure there are many reasons for top residents choosing to attend elsewhere, such as wanting to attend an Ivy League school, or just wanting to be farther from home. For the rich and the poor there are more options. However, for middle class students cost is a very important factor, and I think Carolina should do what it can to offer the best resident students the best deal available to keep them here. For National Merit Finalists it might be difficult to pass up a full ride offer from another university if theyve not been offered very much by UNC. </p>
<p>I consider UNC-CH to already be a top national university, as its 27th place ranking by U.S. News attests, and many more students want to attend than can be admitted. I cant speak for the high level administrators at UNC, but I do know that the taxpayers of the state heavily support the University and expect that the great majority of places available go to residents. Both UVA and UMich receive much less as a percentage of their operating budgets from the taxpayers of their states, so they have more flexibility in the percentage of out-of-state students they admit. Perhaps this has gained them a place or two in the U.S. News rankings, but I think Carolinas model has served the state and the University well.</p>
<p>As for tuition increases, I believe that on a percentage basis it went up about the same amount for in-state and out-of-state students.</p>
<p>I also, of course, do not know how the non-resident students compare with the top 18% of the residents. However, if you are asserting that having out-of-state students at UNC does not enrich the university, one should compare the non-resident students with all the resident students, rather than just the top 18% (or compare the top 18% non-residents with the top 18% residents). If you are arguing that, if, hypothetically, UNC does not admit any out-of-state students, the student population will be equally "well qualified" as if they did, that also is not justifyable. If UNC did not admit any out-of-state students, they would just admit 18% more "not as well qualified" in-state students at the bottom end of the spectrum.</p>
<p>I am very curious as to the source of the 1478 average SAT score statistic. I do not know of anywhere that would publish such a statistic.</p>
<p>It is in North Carolina's interests to keep its best students in North Carolina. However, it may not be in the best interests of the best students in NC to stay here. For all good students and parents, they juggle with the decision of whether it is worth the cost to go to a better school. Obviously, the ones who decided to go out-of-state thought it was a better value to pay more for (supposedly) a better education.</p>
<p>I am confused as to your comment about National Merit Finalists; first, I was a National Merit Finalist but was not once offered a full-ride, and I do not know any who were so offered just because they were a Finalist; second, what's wrong with going to that other university with the full ride? They're obviously getting a pretty good deal.</p>
<p>Percentage basis or non percentage basis, $1300 is still $1300 extra for my parents to pay. And there will be a greater and greater difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition if this is to continue on a "percentage basis".</p>
<p>Other thoughts: I think that it is ridiculous that UNC is asking NC taxpayers to cover the cost of this new legislation. If it wants to give those out-of-staters a full ride, it should absorb the cost itself. Second and off topic, I also think it is ridiculous that NC taxpayers are paying for the cost of the insane and extravagant building projects here...</p>
<p>I am not suggesting that UNC would be better off not admitting any out-of-state students, but merely pointing out that the best resident students are comparable to the best out-of-state students. Therefore, I see no reason to favor out-of-state students in scholarship awards, especially since the residents pay the taxes that largely support the University.</p>
<p>I calculated the average SAT scores based on published information on the number of scholarships given and information that I obtained about the average SAT scores for both in-state and out-of-state students for each scholarship. Part of this information is available on the Trustees website.</p>
<p>Certainly each family has to decide what makes sense for each individual student. Im not suggesting that N.C. students should be forced to stay in-state. I am saying that UNC should make it as financially attractive as possible for the top resident students to attend. </p>
<p>If you look at the Financial Aid and Scholarships part of the CC website, there is a thread about schools that offer a full ride to National Merit Finalists. There are a number of them, and it is a very good deal for those who qualify and dont receive adequate aid from UNC or from other more desirable schools.</p>
<p>I do empathize with out-of-state students who face these large tuition increases and dont mean to sound cavalier about it. However, Carolina is still one of the best college values in the country. </p>
<p>Because UNC is largely tax-supported, it is impossible to truly differentiate between University and tax monies. I would suggest that if there are people who want to see more out-of-state students receive full ride scholarships they should set up funds to accomplish this without the taxpayers having to subsidize it.</p>
<p>As for taxpayers paying for the building projects at UNC, I would venture a guess that if the University continues to discriminate against in-state students, there wont be a willingness to further support these plans.</p>
<p>First, I would like to say that I agree 100% that instaters should also get the full ride. Instaters are paying taxes that support the school.</p>
<p>I would also like to point out though that UNC is a FANTASTIC deal for instaters - full-ride or not. I do not think that scholarships elsewhere are turning away a lot of students. I think it would be hard to find a top school that offers a better deal to these NC students than UNC does. Even if they get ANY scholarship money at another school, UNC would probably still be cheaper. Considering that a lot of the schools that are ranked higher than UNC do not have merit based awards, I doubt that a lot of students are turning away from UNC because of price and better deals elsewhere. I think top NC students are not going to UNC because they'd rather go to HYPSM or other elite, top schools.</p>