Schools "buying" quality students

Parents Forum
81

<p>I think it useful to reread Jamimon's note. The point is NOT to increase academic quality (again, that is happening simply from the fallout from HYP etc.), but to get a larger pool of high-paying customers.</p>

<p>Take Georgetown or WashU for example. They could charge $40k/yr. and have no merit aid. Or they could raise the list price to $45k and offer each higher income student they wish to attract a $20k scholarship over four years. Meanwhile, the $45k will turn into $53 by the final year. The university didn't shell out an extra penny, and got all of these nice higher income students who believe they have "merit scholarships", when their real merit is their parents' ability to pay.</p>

<p>Works, too.</p>

82

<p>I'm not as convinced this sleight of hand works as well as you suggest. The bottom line is still the bottom line and certainly the folks who frequent this site would not be fooled. Yes there can be bragging rights for parents and schools for capturing scholarship money but most of us will not be swayed for mere bragging rights.</p>

83

<p>But parents don't think of it as bragging rights, and it is real. Suppose the student gets rejected at HYP, and has to choose between WashU and the state university honors college at full price. WashU's list price may be $25k more per year, but the $20k "merit scholarship" takes a little of the sting out, and is just another enticement from the "better" school. Now, mind you, these were students with parents who (sometimes with a stretch) could have -- and WOULD HAVE -- afforded HYP to begin with (and would have been happy to do so); now they are being asked to cough up the same bucks to send sonny to WashU. The "merit scholarship" helps them wrap their heads around it a little better.</p>

84

<p>sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.</p>

85

<p>Perhaps the more realistic comparison for the near miss HYP student is Wash U paying 30,000 per year with a 15000 scholarship and state u honors with a full tuition ride. Do you still think most parents and kids will choose WU for the prestige?</p>

86

<p>I think more than enough will. Remember - they had the money to pay full-freight for HYP to begin with. Aren't any full tuition rides where I live, as far as I know. So the $20k over four years merit scholarship at WashU is "found money".</p>

87

<p>Hey, I know I'm a sample of one but .... I'd pay the same for Harvard as I'd pay for state honors as I'd pay for Wash U. I have only so much money and then it's done. Kaput. It's all the same number.</p>

<p>I've calulated my own very personalized version of EFC and interestingly enough the acronym stays the same ,EFC-Every F#$#@#$ Cent I can pay. For several of us middleclassers, I don't think there is anyplace else to cut the budget but I'll keep checking. What's below dogfood? Denney's?</p>

<p>But, if in the end D is left choosing between schools she likes equally well and where she is equally comfortable, and her hard work entitles her to a proffered merit award .......show me the money.</p>

<p>I certainly don't feel that is any different, or less seemly, than a full-need student choosing the school with the most grants/least Work Study and loans.</p>

88

<p>Mini has it right. And, yes, it does happen. I am watching it play out before my very eyes. There are a number of kids who did not get into any college they or their families wanted. However, they were fortuitous enough to apply to a number of safety schools that they never seriously considered. Now those are their options and they need to make a decision. There is some solace in being to able to say that the kid has a nice scholarship to ABC College and some options at XYZ and a number of other schools. So the choice might be $30K at ABC vs $40K at XYZ, and if you really have no preference between the two schools, which do you think you will choose. This scenario plays out more often than you would think.</p>

89

<p>If they have no preference they will most likely choose the less expensive. Why do you and Mini think that the same is not true in the WU vs state honors college example? I think Curmudgeon's view represents the majority opinion for parents. They have a certain amount of money in mind (and sometimes in hand) to spend for college. If parents and students don't get caught up in the prestige hype, they will likely seek out the best value for their money. In the example above is the best value Wash U at 30000 or the honors program at state u, let's say SUNY Binghamton, for room and board?</p>

90

<p>Or room and board at Villanova or Vanderbilt?</p>

91

<p>"They have a certain amount of money in mind (and sometimes in hand) to spend for college."</p>

<p>Yes, but the certain amount of money is $45k/year, which they would be more than happy to shell out at HYP. And that's why WashU, etc. want them, instead of having to pay out $30k a year for students who require need-based aid. That's the whole point.</p>

92

<p>Hmmmm. I should qualify 'seemly'. For example, H and I, two successful professionals with degrees from private universities have children born into a world of advantages. Even if they could get merit awards, even if it would save us money, we wouldn't accept those funds. Our children would be successful without the extra degree of prestige a merit award might buy. If we couldn't afford the prestige, we would send them to local state universities. Their previous advantages would carry the day.</p>

<p>However, our nieces and nephews have not been born into the same circumstances. They don't have two professional parents. They haven't gone to some of the best schools in the world, their families have suffered misfortune and tragedy. Therefore, there would be nothing unseemly about them trying for merit awards. They need that leg up. My kids do not "need" it. We "want" them to have it so we pay full freight. There's probably something just as unseemly in that gluttony--at least my mother thinks so--but that is a different thread, LOL.</p>

<p>By the same token, let's not assume that bought students are that flash. The majority of bought students I know are not impressive--by CC standards. Obviously, rich prestigious schools like Emory, Duke and WASHU get impressive merit students like berurah's S and lk's S, but the smaller, lesser known schools seem to be buying the SAT score. The rest of the package is a mixed bag with potential. That's my observation.</p>

93

<p>Cheers, I wasn't going to jump into this thread, but your post made me want to ask a question. My H and I were prepared to pay full tuition to a private college, as we allowed my D to apply ED. She was unexpectedly offered a merit scholarship there (awarded to the top 20% of admitted students). Apparently, her case is not one of "buying" SAT scores while the rest of her "package" being a "mixed bag of potential" as her SAT scores are only 20 points over the average for admitted students to her school, with her math score actually very close to, but slightly below, the average. I believe that it is more like her interview, grades, activities, academic interests,and recommendations demonstrated to the school that she is the type of student who would be awarded a merit scholarship if she had applied RD, so they gave it to her even though she was ED and bound to attend. Apparently their selection criteria are not based solely on raising the SAT average of their school. </p>

<p>We are not rich but were prepared to pay full tuition for her, as we have not lived beyond our means, I have worked full time since my kids were small, and we have only two kids. We were very proud of her when she was accepted and awarded her scholarship, but all of these discussions are making me feel like my family is somehow part of some sleazy marketing scheme which harms disadvantaged students. </p>

<p>I should add that my son, who is three years older than my D, earned an incredible number of academic awards and recognitions when he was a senior, including a one time $2500 National Merit Scholarship from the National Merit Corporation (but not a merit scholarship from his school, his school doesn't give any, we are paying full freight for him), and this prestigious award from the school which my daughter had selected as her first choice made her feel that she is also a meritorious student.</p>

<p>Under the circumstances, do you feel we should have declined the award or feel guilty for accepting it?</p>

<p>PS My husband and I are also both professionals with degrees from a private university, and I guess we are successful, too, depending on your definition of success. Our combined income is about 20% more than that of two school teachers in our district who are both at the top teacher salary level, if that puts it into perspective.</p>

94

<p>MotherofTwo,</p>

<p>IMHO the fact that you ask the question tells me that your moral compass is excellent.</p>

<p>Personally I like "pay it forward." As an parent of a current student, you will surely be given the opportunity to kick in to your D's school; you can do this to whatever extent feels right. </p>

<p>Or you can give to any other school that awards need aid to worthy kids. Also, encourage your kids to donate to their schools once they are up and out. </p>

<p>My parents both went to college on virtually full rides to UCB-- and my Dad has told me that UCB and one other charity will recieve more $ from their estate than my sister or I will. </p>

<p>I think that is appropriate. I too received a great deal from UCB-- indirectly-- because it allowed my parents to move into a whole different economic tier and I was able to benefit from that in 1000 ways. </p>

<p>My folks' educations were very important to them, and they have a heartfelt committment to making sure other worthy poor kids get a shot like they did.</p>

<p>(One funny note: UCB does not track alumni kids. There is no way anyone would have known that my D was the GrandD of a generous donor! There you give because you want to and not for any "advantage.")</p>

95

<p>The original question concerned schools of more dubious merit than an Emory or Wash U giving out merit aid like candy in order to improve the perceived quality of the school. There is a sizable fraction of kids/parents who pick schools by the average SAT score.
As I wrote the original comment that started this thread, I know what it meant.</p>

96

<p>Curmudgeon - as usual, you have said it plainly and eloquently and I agree with mol103 that your perspective and situation is likely the predominant one among families of non-disadvantaged non-wealthy kids.</p>

<p>MotherofTwo - I couldn't have said it better.
[quote]
We are not rich but were prepared to pay full tuition for her, as we have not lived beyond our means,

[/quote]
Like you, our S received an exciting merit award, and it was decidedly not his SATs that did it but the "whole package" and I don't see why we should be considered to be getting more than our fair share for accepting the award. We certainly could have spent ourselves silly, have insufficient savings and qualify for "need-based" aid. But we don't qualify. The world of college applicants does not divide into the sorely disadvantaged and the fabulously wealthy. There is a rather large spectrum in between and I am not sure where someone is going to draw the dividing line to determine who <em>shouldn't</em> accept a merit award. I am in awe of cheers' perspective and applaud it, but I admit I can't quite get my arms around it.</p>

<p>Curmudgeon - You could probably go with the dented dog food cans. But the alternative that many expect you and others to opt for is the mega-loan. If necessary and if willing and if a lender is willing, then that is an option. But who wouldn't go with your view - show you the money, indeed. Your D will have earned it.</p>

97

<p>curmudgeon - I forgot to say that your new definition of EFC is hilarious :) I was laughing when I read that!</p>

98

<p>Curmudgeon:
Ditto on your EFC definition - best one I've ever come across... :)</p>

99

<p>My D was given a small merit scholarship to her (private) high school. I told the school we didn't need it; they said they'd be happy to accept a donation in the amount of the scholarship but that she had earned it. I thought it was a nice solution. She was offered a merit scholarship to one of the colleges that accepted her, but ultimately turned them down, so the ethical questions did not arise.</p>

100

<p>"Obviously, rich prestigious schools like Emory, Duke and WASHU get impressive merit students...."</p>

<p>But it wasn't always like that. When my D was looking at colleges in the late 1990s, WASHU was trolling for students. We got stuff from them all the time despite showing no interest at all, and D could have easily gotten in. She would not have made it in by today's standards. The policies they put in place changed their profile and their desirability. All those merit offers did what they were intended to do. Tulane is now doing much the same thing. </p>

<p>Back in 1998, when a friend's kid turned down Swarthmore for a full ride at WASHU, everyone was really skeptical. Why would such a smart kid go there? He had been flown out, wined and dined, offered lots of access to a big dean (and such access was promised during the full four years) and off he went. He and others like him changed the desirability and prestige factor of WASHU.</p>

<p>My S is now on his way to U of Miami, which will have a big freshman class - bigger than they intended. I think that U of Miami may be on a similar path, although merit awards there are given on more holistic grounds - there do not seem to be such firm SAT cutoffs as I have seen elsewhere.</p>