<p>Most economists would argue that the marginal cost of adding a student if far less than the average cost.</p>
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Most economists would argue that the marginal cost of adding a student if far less than the average cost.
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<p>Right. But, when we talk about increasing enrollment, we aren't talking about adding one student here or there. That kind of growth can be accomodated by the growth of endowment (or legislative appropriation).</p>
<p>We are talking about a significant increase in enrollment over a short period of time (say 20% or more). That kind of increase involves significant expense if existing quality is to be maintained: new dorms, additional faculty, additional classroom buildings, new labs, additional deans, a larger health care center, library expansion, additional student activity spaces, more writing mentors, addtional study abroad programs, and so on and so forth.</p>
<p>The only schools that can significantly increase enrollment without a corresponding increase in expense are schools that are operating below capacity. Elite colleges are not typically operating below capacity.</p>
<p>So can I assume we all pretty much agree with mini's numbers on Williams, Swarthmore and Amherst. 70-80 persent of the kids top 20%, 10% under 40K and 10-20% middle/working class in a middle/worling class nation? And tell me again why this is such a wonderfull model? Because a tiny handfull of poor kids get to rub elbows with the rich and learn to agree that the plebeian sots in middle america are crude vulgar and addicted to a capitalistic ideal of merit?</p>
<p>No. It's a bad idea to assume that.</p>
<p>I, for one, appreciated being "bought." It's why I'm not going to be loaded down with debts like my parents are.</p>
<p>Why do I find it amusing that Faye Vincent, a man who made his mark running major league baseball, and industry with an anti-trust exemption, doesn't like competing for top students any more than he likes competing for customers or employees? May he would like to institute a draft for top students.</p>
<p>I have to agree with zagat, above. And I do wonder how many carpenter's children it takes to make a perfect class at Swarthmore, or the others.</p>
<p>I doubt library, health, lab, and classroom facilities would need much expansion as most are far below capacity most of the time. Even increasing a class from 10 to 12 will have no impact on the quality.</p>
<p>FYI my pal, a math whiz, told me that over time, marginal costs equal actual costs.</p>
<p>There are many interesting issues to entangle in these 8 pages. I haven't read all the arguments thoroughly, so apologies if this has been addressed, but I didn't see the following as the primary issue (which is need vs. merit). My concern is middle-class affordability for ALL levels of students (including students of Ivy quality) at <em>private</em> U's in addition to public U's. </p>
<p>This is not a concern of self-interest, as we are need recipients. The Ivies are primarily the hugely endowed schools; therefore, they can afford to gap-aid middle class families, while also fully aiding families in need with high-producing students. I don't see that happening at non-Ivy (but highly selective) colleges/U's. Many of these have a "no-merit" policy, too. With still-generous but smaller endowments, they seem to reserve all their aid to attract greatly needing students. That leaves the middle-class families who don't have an extra $40K/year, to choose more affordable publics. It seems to me that these families should have similar access to upper-level <em>privates</em> as needy families do, with the same level of accomplishment. </p>
<p>It seems to me that the ones hardest hit are top producing middle class students who seek University facilities as opposed to LACs. They may have just barely missed being accepted to an Ivy with a huge endowment. They will choose their in-state highest-profile public U.</p>
<p>I just think the whole college/U system as a whole can improve its economic diversity.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>Many of the schools I believe you are referring to, i.e. the Ivy League, USC, BC, Duke, ND, Stanford, MIT, Georgtown, many LACs like Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore and Carleton, provide for "100% of demonstrated need". It really comes down to how each school defines 'need'. </p>
<p>Many of the private schools, like the ones listed above, ask families to submit the CSS Profile in addition to the FAFSA. There is often a difference in the EFC between these 2 forms. Further, there is certain information from the CSS Profile some of the schools do not use, i.e. home equity. In other words, there is no clear consistent definition of "need" like there is with standardized test scores.</p>
<p>Your best bet is to go to the web-sites at a number of schools to see if they have a financial aid calculator. If they do, run some numbers. For me I ran some numbers at Williams, Dartmouth and Princeton. Their EFC calculation for my family varied by $5000.</p>
<p>Further, outside of the Ivy league, most top 50 universities offer some kind of merit aid. For example, Stanford offers athletic merit aid, WUStL offers academic merit aid, Duke offers both. If you are a middle class family many of these schools are a great option.</p>
<p>Good luck in your investigation.</p>
<p>epiphany,</p>
<p>Further, if you are looking for financial aid calculators, I find that the easiest place to find them is on the web-site of schools that have Early Decision as a policy. Though I do not believe in ED as a policy, I find that many of these schools are trying to be as open as possible about what you can expect.</p>
<p>For example, the three schools I listed in my recent post, Dartmouth, Williams and Princeton, are all ED schools.</p>
<p>"So can I assume we all pretty much agree with mini's numbers on Williams, Swarthmore and Amherst. 70-80 persent of the kids top 20%, 10% under 40K and 10-20% middle/working class in a middle/worling class nation?"</p>
<p>NOT my numbers. Numbers came from IPEDS, provided by ID, and numbers provided by Harvard. I just summarized them.</p>
<p>epiphany:</p>
<p>You make an excellent point. The students are equally worthy, so why is attending an excellent private school typically LESS possible for a kid whose parents make $90-110K than one whose parents make $40-60K?</p>
<p>Exactly my point, SBMom. (Thanks)<br>
Eagle, this is not my issue, as I mentioned in my post, so I don't need to visit those sites, since we are need-candidates, but thanks for the info, certainly. I still maintain that there are fewer opportunities for the also-rans applying to selective private universities if household income exceeds even $60K. Many of these have been waitlisted from Ivies (thus, not "unqualified," etc.) I don't see a substantial number of non-Ivy private universities overflowing with either merit money or gap-need money for these middle class students. There may be an athletic scholarship here or there, sometimes merit recognition for a single student competing with the entire pool for a designated dean's or honors scholarship of some particular title.</p>
<p>I have noticed a consistent trend over the last several yrs. among my D's very capable friends & former classmates from previous middle-school & other high schools. They're choosing top public U's only because of financial realities which disqualify them for need aid. Those high-profile publics are becoming increasingly a reach, therefore, given the quality of student applying. I say that with no judgment, good or bad (regarding that reach).</p>
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I don't see a substantial number of non-Ivy private universities overflowing with either merit money or gap-need money for these middle class students.
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<p>I don't know if the data supports that. I know that 50% of the students receiving financial aid at Swarthmore have family incomes above $80,000 per year. This is a school that offers roughly two "merit" scholarships per year -- a specific endowment ear-marked for kids from the local geographis region and Delmarva peninsula.</p>
<p>They do have some additional scholarships that convert the loan and work-study portions of a need-based package to grants. As far as I can tell these are nearly all tied to furthering the diversity of the campus in one fashion or another.</p>
<p>I have recently witnessed a bidding war between two very selective universities, one a top tier Ivy, for a middle-class student who would be unable to afford either on her own. Both offered what they considered fullneed, which was substantial. The applicant's parents, however, did not feel it was enough given their situation. This is where things got interesting. After meetings at each and a little back and forth, the Ivy finally offered $10,000 more than the other, and won the student (who incidentally, all things being equal, preferred the other school, and still is suffering a little buyer's remorse). Now they didn't call it "merit" aid, but they did offer a sweeter deal to get this student over and above the "need" calculations. Both schools knew the other was trying to recruit the student. Apparently, even the most prestigious schools will fight to get a student they want.</p>
<p>idad:</p>
<p>Is it possible to name both the school? I hope my son applies to these colleges, which do not overlook his academic rigor along with his athletic abilities.</p>
<p>I prefer not to name the schools as I didn't ask permission of the student to tell her story and don't want to identify her. This is an academically gifted student, who had no outside help, test prep courses, etc. at all.</p>
<p>Are you talking about a girl who is gifted in math?</p>