<p>I have heard that A LOT! lol</p>
<p>Ivy this, ivy that lol</p>
<p>
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Get off your private school pedastal. Public schools can exceed or rival any ivy league in any department.
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</p>
<p>This is the most true thing I've ever read on CC.</p>
<p>Adding Tulane v. Tulsa to rivalry list.</p>
<p>As Im reading the Berkeley vs Penn debate it is clear that the Berkeley kids are real touchy about the subject.</p>
<p>I dont agree with the "Penn is better because it is Ivy" argument but some Berkeley supporters have manifested their own BS.</p>
<p>As someone mentioned earlier...saying that Berkeley is better than Penn in everything but Wharton is absurd...lets see some facts, otherwise I dont buy that for a minute.</p>
<p>Frankly, for undergrad, Berkeley isnt the caliber school you make it out to be. Someone mentioned that the THES ranking is better, clearly because Cal is second in the world. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? THES is a research intensive (grad school) ranking. That is why UCSF is ranked in the top tier. Unless you are going to grad school right now, that ranking is as useful as a broken kneecap.</p>
<p>Penn is a smaller, richer, more selective university
Berkeley is a larger, poorer, less selective univeristy</p>
<p>Id like to finish by saying both are amazingly good schools and anyone should be lucky enough to sit here and actually have the option between the two.</p>
<p>"As someone mentioned earlier...saying that Berkeley is better than Penn in everything but Wharton is absurd...lets see some facts, otherwise I dont buy that for a minute."</p>
<p>How about you show me some facts that say that Penn is better than UC Santa Cruz. You cant do it can you? Well, it is not a fact that any school is better than any other so there can be no facts to prove such a thing. The best thing we can do is look at the various rankings published by the various organizations that do this. If we do that, we can conclude that Berkeley is ranked higher in more deparments and in more ranking systems than Penn. </p>
<p>"Id like to finish by saying both are amazingly good schools and anyone should be lucky enough to sit here and actually have the option between the two."</p>
<p>I will agree with you on this one. Penn and Berkeley are both great schools and anyone who is fortunate enough to attend any of these should be very proud.</p>
<p>Berkeley has over 200 NAS members and 44 winners of major awards in the last year. Penn has 89 NAS members and 23 faculty awards. UCB's library is nearly twice as large. While the endowment is half that of Penn, UCB's state funding is equal to around 10 Billion in endowment assuming a typical 5% spend rate.</p>
<p>barrons: i think you ought to qualify your statement about NAS members and winners of major awards by saying that most of them are not required to teach undergrads. At ivies, its much more common for top profs to teach undergrads (partially because its expected, partially because professors, as teachers, enjoy teaching classes of 20 of the best students in teh country, as opposed to berkeley, where you wouldnt know whether theyre the top students in the country or just a crowd of 500 people because you never have to talk to them or read their papers.
Comparing faculty at berk to faculty at an ivy or top private school is like apples to oranges... and in pretty much every person whos gone through the process or worked in education, the oranges have a decided advantage over the apples.</p>
<p>There is merit in what you say...but what I was looking for was exactly what you provided - rankings of different departments.</p>
<p>But Berkeley in general is a much better graduate school than undergrad. All of the funding, excellent professors, resources, go right to the grad schools.</p>
<p>amen. The UC grad schools are as good as any in the world, bar none. This is because they were designed to be this way. The undergrad schools are not designed to be the best in the world... in california, the undergrad focus is at the CSUs... but that system is messed up a lot right now.</p>
<p>What is wrong with the CSU's?</p>
<p>In fact, I dont know much about the CSU's?</p>
<p>How good are they, what other schools (outside of cali) are they comparable too?</p>
<p>Yale v. Wesleyan = unequal (yes, I've heard that one made before)</p>
<p>Brown v. Providence = unequal</p>
<p>Smith v. Wellesley = somewhat equal</p>
<p>Smith v. Holyoke = more equal, not sure if they're actually rivals?</p>
<p>Oxford v. Cambridge = equal</p>
<p>under the "master plan" designed by UC regents in the 60s, and still in affect today, this is how its supposed to break down:
UCs are primarily for graduate level work and research
CSUs are primarily for teaching undergraduates, but some offer graduate degrees, and some of the larger ones (san diego, san francisco, san jose) conduct some research
there are currently 23 CSUs, the largest is san diego state which is larger than some UCs... the smallest ones are monterey bay, san marcos, and a few others i cant remember because few people have heard of them. Theres also cal maritime, which is a specialty school just for learning how to work on or captain a ship.</p>
<p>The reason why I said they are messed up is because our wonderful governator has caused a lot of cuts in funding. Subsequently, fees are at an all time high, athletic programs have had to be cut, and a lot of majors have been cut out of the school (for example, SF state just lost its engineering school and dance dept. (along with a few others) due to lack of funding.) Also, CSUs are supposed to be guaranteed admission for anyone who meets the requirements (a combination SAT/ACT score and gpa for in state people)... but several of the campuses are too popular to accomadate every qualified student, so admissions is messed up. These are called impacted schools... the most impacted ones are San Diego, Long Beach, Sonoma, Chico and Cal Poly SLO.
Cal Poly SLO is the most respected..it is primarily an engineering school, and is considered one of the top engineering schools in california, and a better program then many of the UCs. However, everyone who goes there must declare a major as a freshman, which, in my opinion, is retarded, but its how they guarantee you will graduate in 4 years. At most CSUs, its dificult to get all the classes you want because the school is so overcrowded due to funding cuts, which then makes it hard to graduate in 4 years. </p>
<p>Not all of the CSUs are residential campus colleges.. many of them are purely for commuters (i.e. tehres no campus housing, no sports team, etc.).. the residential ones are San Diego, SF State, Chico, Cal Poly.. and a few more, most of the popular or larger ones are... san jose is just adding a lot of housing this year to become more residential.
Cal Poly is comparable to practically any engineering program in the country outside of MIT... CSUs run the full gamut from being totally respected like cal poly SLO and san diego state, to virtually unknown (where the hell is san marcos?). I hope that has helped a little bit.</p>
<p>Thecity. I think you don't understand how important departmental majors are. Simply put, a Penn engineer/math/stat major is just not seen as the same as a Berkeley engineer/math/stat major. NO matter where you go in the country. </p>
<p>And theCity, most of those professors do teach upper division undergraduate courses. Really, its the same tired arguments over and over again, and we disprove them everytime.</p>
<p>Lets start moving forward. California is ready to lead the country into the new era. Just let it go.</p>
<p>To be honest with you guys I never knew Stanford and Berkeley were rivals until I went to college. I always figured UCLA was Berkeley's rival just because they are neck and neck for the title of top UC.</p>
<p>^ thats cool. i bet u never heard of the lakers too... being from the mountains and all...</p>
<p>I am from San Francisco. Though you're right, there are tons of hilly areas there.</p>
<p>Rooster, You're from S.F. and you'd never heard of the rivalry? My god, I'm from a state that is very far away from California and even I knew about it. Were you always out of town during Big Game weekend or something? What about The Play? How can someone from the bay area not know about the play.</p>
<p>And TheCity, if the UCs are meant primarally for graduate study, why is it that there are something like 25,000+ undergrads but only 6,000+ grad students at the top UCs?</p>
<p>The Play: Classic. Feel bad for that band member, lol.</p>
<p>Just because I live in SF, it doesn't mean I had to have known that Stanford and Berkeley were rivals. The funny thing is, I never set foot on the Stanford campus before I enrolled, and I somehow had the impression that Stanford was very far away. It wasn't till I got there for Orientation that I found out that it was only 30-40 mins away from my home!</p>
<p>I knew where Berkeley was though. But it just never occured to me that Stanford and Berkeley shared any connection. They just seemed like such different schools with such different images. UC Berkeley and UCLA seemed much more in tune with each other.</p>
<p>Maybe you thought that Stanford was too good to have a rivalry with Berkeley.</p>
<p>rooster is not from San Francisco. Not the city at least. He is from like Eureka, or some town like that that is far away from SF.</p>