<p>lol...me...biased??????? HAAHHAHAHAHHHAHAAHHAHA</p>
<p>Houston vs. Rice. VERY UNEQUAL. Are they even sports rivals. I think not. The rice football team SUCKS! There baseball team is alright though</p>
<p>
[quote]
When you compare UNDERGRAD schools, Penn is defeinitely better than Berkeley. I don't know why you guys are so quick to tout the graduate school rankings. On collegeconfidential, most of us are interested in undergrad strength only.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'll admit that Wharton major is very good. But when you compare the future prospects of a Berkeley engineer vs. Penn engineer, in MCB, Math, Stat, Economics, English, Sociology, International Relations, History, etc... Berkeley wins in every undergraduate major, with the slight exception of Wharton, and even that is more dependent on region than anything. Penn has Wharton undergrad, and thats it. Strength of undergraduate major counts for a lot. </p>
<p>I personally chose Berkeley over Wharton. But I can understand those that would choose Wharton over Berkeley. Its a 50/50 choice. But when it comes to non Wharton UPenn, there is simply no comparison.</p>
<p>Get off your private school pedastal. Public schools can exceed or rival any ivy league in any department. Berkeley is bringing down the walls of priveledge for all public schools, and there is nothing that you or any biased ranking favoring privates can do about it.</p>
<p>Tell em West Sidee!</p>
<p>West Sidee, I think you're forgetting to consider the fact that Penn is an Ivy, and regardless of the fact that that just means an inclusion in a second-rate athletic conference, it goes a long way in terms of perception, money, and hiring by east-coasters who dismiss the idea that any ivy-comparable school exists out west besides Stanford.</p>
<p>Also, Berkeley's is in the throes of financial chaos (and unlike UCLA hasn't been really aggressive in pursuing alternative funding) whereas Penn has an endowment of twice that of Berkeley's, spread over a smaller student body. I wouldn't count on Berkeley to beat Penn in a bidding war for a nobel laureate any time soon.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I adore Berkeley and acknowledge that all too often it goes unmentioned in discussions about America's most elite universities. However, the sad fact of the matter is that as a public institution, it must be subservient to the political whims of California education policy, as well as the state's budget. The freedom afforded to private universities is clearly a superior modus operandi, and until Berkeley can somehow become more independent, it will never be able to equal an Ivy/de-facto Ivy.</p>
<p>Why else do you think a school with so many nobel laureates, elements named in honor of it, kickass grad programs, and influential research isn't even ranked in the Top 20?</p>
<p>Megastud. Berkeley's financial resources improved greatly this past year. Berkeley regularly beats Harvard for professors. Professors are known to take less money if they get a chance to teach at Berkeley over Harvard. In case you have missed my 1000's of posts about STATISTICAL INACCURACIES for the US New, I have already shown many many flaws with US News that clearly shows a bias towards privates in statistical inaccuracies. For one, US News doesn't count a lot of UC Revenue, from such things as patents which generate a lot of money for the UC's. Also, one sitting SAT score vs. best verbal + best math, which is a significant factor for SAT selectivity. In light of these statistical errors, I would have to say that for university excellence, THES ranking is superior. </p>
<p>When you pick a school, I liken it to picking a dojo to learn Tae-kwon do. Do you pick the dojo that has the most money? Or do you pick the dojo with the best instructor, top ranked master? The choice is obvious. On a side note, Berkeley's taekwondo team is ranked #1 in the nation. </p>
<p>I would say that overall there is a correlation between a schools finances and their academic excellence. But once a threshold is reached, Berkeley, UCLA, and U Michigan have proven to break free from the "mold". </p>
<p>It seems that you buy into this "mold" argument without recognizing that there are greater factors than the "mold" once you reach a certain threshold.</p>
<p>west sidee: berkeley gets profs over harvard because berk says "come here and you wont have to teach undergrads".... so your argument, for all our purposes here of finding a good college for people, is useless. I dont think anybody would argue that an education at berkeley is of the same quality as an education at harvard, at least in any field other than engineering. </p>
<p>with that said, you also need to stop trying to pretend that these conclusions you've come to about berkeley are at all based in statistics. you go to the school, you like it there, nobody is trying to take that away from you... but you cant pretend to make a statistical or factual argument when you are already "biased". </p>
<p>however, themegastud is dead wrong as well. Berkeley is as good or better than cornell, and its an ivy. Who gives a damn what east-coast old monied people think.. of course they wouldnt want their children going anywhere besides an Ivy, thats tradition, and its grounded more in tradition and superstition of it being a much better education (because 40 years ago that may have been the case) than it does with actual quality of education now. </p>
<p>Once you get a job, anybody who asks about the selectivity is a jackass, and only nerds remember their SAT scores after they turn 25. Get over yourselves, prestige isnt everything.</p>
<p>In all reality, Berkeley is a top 20 institution. Berkeley has so much name recognition/prestige, and its academics are comparable to that of the Ivy League and other "most selective" colleges.</p>
<p>^ The City. Professors pick Berkeley over Harvard for less money because of the environment here. For the colleagues they have. For the reputation for promoting all ideas, radical or not. Top professors tend to have radical ideas that are not yet accepted by the majority. They know that Berkeley is the place for them in this situation. Also, they have lower blood pressure in Berkeley for various reasons. Which one can only experience by visiting both Berkeley and Boston. </p>
<p>In all seriousness, for top professors, money isn't as important as research, freedom, and an intellectually radically stimulating environment and history with colleagues to match. Having radical ideas that change the world forever is more possible at Berkeley than Harvard, and top professors recognize this fact.</p>
<p>West Sidee, let me again start my response by saying that Berkeley is a great school; in many ways, even superior to my own alma mater.</p>
<p>I just can't see how you can claim that it's significantly better than an Ivy, and use statements like "professors are known to take less money if they get a chance to teach at Berkeley over Harvard." This is not only subjective but also hard to believe. Are you saying that if you were a star professor, you would turn down not only extra money but also the prestige associated with one the world's most storied and revered institutions (though Berkeley certainly is as well) to teach at Berkeley, with statistically slightly inferior students (only because we're comparing it to Harvard!), and lesser facilities? Perhaps if I was a chem professor, but even then...</p>
<p>And getting back to the original Berkeley/Penn argument, I was only trying to say that you may be underestimating Penn by failing to take into account some advantages that aren't always so obvious. To continue with your Tae Kwan Do analogy, the dojo with the most money is likely to have the best instructor. If you look at a list of top university endowments, it completely mirrors US News rankings. Let's face it - the world revolves around economics and the school with the most money to shell out can BUY the best facilities and BUY the best professors. Currently, Berkeley is just not as equipped to do this as an Ivy with it's check-writing alumni and lack of dependence on state government.</p>
<p>And yes, I buy into the mold argument and I argued the reasons behind such earlier. I acknowledged that Berkeley's accomplishments should warrant it an even consideration with Ivies but such is not the case because it is public and therefore hindered. Yes, I'm saying it again. Berkeley should be compared with Ivies. However, it often is not, or at least not as frequently as I feel it should be.</p>
<p>I don't mean for this post to be an elitist "we're private school students and we're better than you" type thing. Just that making the case for Berkeley to be on equal footing or better than Penn is a tough argument to make. Private schools are afforded many more means by which to attain prestige and Berkeley cannot always compete. If you don't accept this fact then you're only kidding yourself.</p>
<p>TheCity, please go back and read my post. I never said Berkeley wasn't as "good" as Cornell. In fact, I agree with you. What I said was that Berkeley is not often enough perceived as being on par with Cornell and I subsequently outlined why I thought this was so.</p>
<p>To each his/her own. Penn may not be better than Berkeley, but Berekeley is not necessarily better then Penn. Which school is better is relative. Shorts year round or hoodie, Big Urban City or small city, public vs. private. It depends on preference.</p>
<p>Who says that the Berkeley history or sociology programs are better than Penn's? I can't believe you even said it's English department is better. Where are your rankings? Don't tell me heresay.</p>
<p>We may not be the elite of the Ivy League, but don't diss Penn b/c someone said Berk was on the same level, that's just arrogance.</p>
<p>Here is where I come from in my opinion of Penn v Berk</p>
<p>Last year about 12 graduating seniors went to berk, this year it will be about 15.
Last year, one person was accepted to Penn, she was teh valedictorian, we were all really impressed, including everyone whos going to berkeley, that somebody got in there. </p>
<p>The people at berk (and by that i mena the majority of people, who are in-state) may like to humor themselves and say that they are just as good students as those at Penn or any of the other top 10 US schools... but in their hearts, they know better.</p>
<p>Good school or good students--what is the question?? The students at UCB are plenty good enough that they won't have to slow the class down for them to keep up.</p>
<p>Penn may be more "selective" than Berkeley as far as SAT Ranges and such, but that doesn't mean that the academics at Penn and Penn's name recognition is better than Berkeley's. In fact, the academics at Berkeley are very comparable if not better than the academics at Penn, and Berkeley has big name recognition.</p>
<p>Ivy is an athletic league. People seem to forget that around here, but the fact remains that outside the bubble of CC, most people couldn't identify Brown, Dartmouth, or Penn as part of the ivy league, despite the three dropping the term "ivy league" every chance they get (go read their viewbooks or look at their website).</p>
<p>Most people will tell you the ivy league is HYP, Stanford, maybe Columbia and then stare at you blankly.</p>
<p>Contrast that with world-class recognition at Berkeley.</p>
<p>Berkeley is at least as good a school as Brown, Penn, or Dartmouth and it is much more prestigious - and no athletic conference membership will change that fact. Selectivity (based entirely upon applications because of the membership in that athletic conference) does not make a good school, either.</p>
<p>To say that Penn is better because it is "an ivy" is idiocy.</p>
<p>Holy Cross vs Colgate- Patriot League's highest profile schools-equal.</p>
<p>I'd say Laff and Lehigh are higher profile, plus I've actually heard of their rivalry and the teams are good</p>
<p>no one said penn is better, just don't say berkeley is better either</p>
<p>"To say that Penn is better because it is "an ivy" is idiocy."</p>
<p>To say that anyone said Penn is better because it's an ivy is idiocy.</p>
<p>^ there are a lot of people who say a school is better "because its an ivy". </p>
<p>You never heard anyone say that themegastud? I can point you to the thread if you like.</p>