<p>Not to worry Believersmom.. this is a friendly disagreement among all of us who are looking out for our kids.</p>
<p>I apologize Believersmom...I didn't mean to upset you. I just know that in the past when this was brought up it was also controversial as to what was considered a cut. Most MT schools are very leary of the word cut and justifiably so.</p>
<p>nytheatremom is so right....we agree to disagree on this forum...it's all good.</p>
<p>SUE</p>
<p>Yes, Believersmom, I trust most posters don't think of this as something to do with you or your child. Did you start the post? If so, I didn't even realize that you did. Cuts are a subject we're all interested in and interested in discussing. And, of course, we all have our own opinions. Please allow us to discuss and share and even disagree with each other without taking offense.</p>
<p>Believersmom, don't worry. First, none of this had to do with your child or situation. I think you are trying to find out the policies or philosophies of the various programs out there. Everyone wants information of this sort to help them to figure out the best "fits" for them. I know that is your intention. I think the discussion is a good one because all of this is part of the factors needing to be weighed in selecting a BFA program. </p>
<p>Your question then ensued into a discussion of just what is a cut program anyway. There are gray areas here and differences between evaluation that most schools would have and actual cuts at certain junctures in the program. There are variations as well. Each school has a philosophy and one is not better than another but merely there are differences. You are understandably trying to garner information. However, I don't think you can come up with a list quite like you were hoping to here. I think what you can do is gather as much information on every school on your list. Ask the school questions directly. Talk to students IN the programs. Ask here too of course. For instance, in a dicussion on a particular school, you can find out the philosophy and how do they evaluate students and do students ever switch to the BA and is that a choice based on advisement, or by specific criteria that must be met, or is there a "cut" in numbers that was intended and upfront, or is it based on failing courses and not putting out or on talent and potential and all that stuff. You can discuss each program but I am not sure they fit into neat little lists as there is gray matter here and too many variations. </p>
<p>I think this discussion is a worthy one and it does come up every year and for valid reasons. I am glad you chose to bring the topic up and do not worry too much. Disagreements are fine and they are of a friendly nature from what I can tell.</p>
<p>Keep investigating and exploring each school both directly and here too. But I am not sure we can make these kinds of lists and fear their inaacuracies and the taking of some information wrongly. As I said earlier, had I or some others from Tisch not read the thread, it stated that they have cuts and they don't. So, I am wary of making these defined lists on this topic as I think you have to discuss whatever you know about each school and leave it at that. </p>
<p>As mentioned, some schools, like I witnessed at UMich or NYU, actually explain their rationale for NOT having cuts because this goes to the heart of their philosophies of what the education is about. So, it is important to discuss this topic and I am glad you did because you want to ask these sorts of questions at every school you are considering. There is no good or bad way here....or right or wrong way....it is a matter of finding a school where you feel a match with what you are looking for.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>I agree that "cuts" are more a grey issue, than black-or-white. No point in naming names, but I know 3 schools who HAVE in fact cut people, although their official position is otherwise. In one case, the student had a 3.0 average, and had been cast in 3 shows in his freshman year, and was cut in May. I think in many cases, it may be the question of "fit" of the program and the student, but 2 of the cases I know, the student did not have a clue that it was coming.</p>
<p>In trying to research this with various schools, my suggestion would be to ask about how many enroll as freshmen, and how many graduate. If there is a large discrepancy, I would ask if they track the reasons. It could be that students are leaving to "go pro", or that they transfer to another school, or that they decide to pursue another major, OR that they have been asked to leave. No matter the cause, I would be leery of any program that shows a sizeable difference between entering freshmen and graduating seniors. Of course, there are no guarantees, but certainly my hope when we were doing the college search was that my D would find a school where she would be happy, healthy, and productive for 4 years, and leave with a degree from that school.</p>
<p>Um, well I don't want to get into all of the "what is a cut" drama, but I read a couple of questions that I can answer...</p>
<p>Grades, well at my school I have one or two academic general classes that are graded normally, and then one required dramatic history class that is also traditional, but when it comes to movement, my yoga teacher says that we all start with c's and must end up with an a because we have changed and our bodies have changed...so if we all try we get a's unless we miss more than one class, nad if we feel less than a b+ on any day we are suposed to get a hug...um for acting and voice and speech it is weird, we get an "r" for the first two quarters and our final grade is the invite to come back or not, so it's really not a traditional grade.</p>
<p>Also DePaul doesn't have a MT program. I think we out on like one musical a year, and in your forth year you take a MT class but it has no major.</p>
<p>The cut thing sucks, but it really pushes you to do your best at all times and not slack off and forces you to test yourself, so I understand the reason, also people almost never miss class!</p>
<p>MusThCC...thanks for that post. I also agree that you may want to look into and ask about programs where the senior class has dwindled and try to find out why. </p>
<p>I loved your last sentence: "Of course, there are no guarantees, but certainly my hope when we were doing the college search was that my D would find a school where she would be happy, healthy, and productive for 4 years, and leave with a degree from that school." </p>
<p>Everyone has a different take on this but for me, that's where it is at too. I want my kid to like the program, get something out of it and have an opportunity to see it through and graduate. If someone feels that way, then they have to find a program that matches that kind of philosophy.</p>
<p>ckp...you wrote: "The cut thing sucks, but it really pushes you to do your best at all times and not slack off and forces you to test yourself, so I understand the reason, also people almost never miss class!" </p>
<p>I do understand that the cut policy can achieve that but there are other ways to accomplish it as well. For intance, my kid can't miss studio either. I think she can miss a total of two times all semester from a particular studio class and must be excused. It is very strict. Grades and other evaluations in college can have stringent and high standards but still not have a cut system. I have taught at five colleges and believe me, I had attendance policies that affected their grades and rubrics of what was needed for certain grades to to pass. I do not think anybody here would argue against a kid being put on probation at school if he/she were cutting classes, not doing the work, handing work in late, doing poor work and not progressing at all. Education involves standards and evaluation. I think when a kid is in trouble, you give them a chance to improve, and not throw them out. After many chances, after a while, you have to guide the student into an appropriate program where the student can thrive. But it still is not the same as cutting someone based on intents to decrease the class size, or based on talent or potential. But there may be some kids who don't make it in the programs because they were not cut out for it. Like Chris said, the audition doesn't show work ethic and all and sometimes, the program really is not right for the kid. Sometimes a kid does not do well in school and schools need to set a standard for the diploma and so forth. So all that stuff is understandable. But it still differs than the concept of a cut program. Standards of attendance and performance on assignments are parts of any major and schools do have to keep to them so that a diploma stands for a level of work. However, schools still make you come to class like your school does, and make you work up to a high standard, but can do that without the 'threat' of being cut. That is where the difference lies. A student who is not doing well needs guidance and help with improving or redirecting but still deserves a chance at the education. That is different than being cut because of talent or potential or a need to dwindle the class by the fourth year. In my view, if you are talented enough to be admitted to an elite program, you should be able to be allowed to see it through unless you are failing, missing classes and those sorts of things where any student would also have their enrollment brought into question. I would like to think that even then, there is a probationary period to help the student turn things around.</p>
<p>According to my acting teacher, most of the conservatory programs that do NOT have cuts usually lose about a third of the class by graduation. This mostly comes from kids that figure out what a hard life a life in the theater truly is and decide it isn't for them, can't take the intensity when they figure out that training isn't all fun and games or just decide it isn't what they want to do for whatever reason. So, according to him around a 66.6% graduation rate shouldn't raise your eyebrows.</p>
<p>I agree with tripletreat that some kids voluntarily leave programs after finding out how hard they have to work. </p>
<p>I agree with SoozieVT that Syracuse does not appear to have a cut policy in the form we consider a real cut. I believe that both Ithaca and Syracuse should be removed from the list, as we did not come away from our visits feeling that the juries or evaluations were the same as a cut policy.</p>
<p>I believe that previously on this forum, Boston Conservatory has been mentioned as having cuts, but we have not talked to them.</p>
<p>Also, Point Park has everyone enter as a freshman BA major and later audition (I think 2nd year) for the BFA program. We felt that the audition into BFA would be fine as long as the student is doing everything expected of them. One can also remain a BA theatre major without ever entering BFA. Some people choose this route because it allows a minor in another area. This is not a cut policy, but simply another way a college deals with evaluations as students progress.</p>
<p>Lastly, earlier today, ocuMTinfo sent me the below in an e-mail and asked me to post it for him, due to his computer CC login problems. By the time I got on the computer to do so, he had already given additional information on the OCU thread. Here was his earlier comment:</p>
<p>OCU does not have cut policy at any time for accepted students. OCU firmly believes that students develop at different rates and how one is in their sophomore year may not be how they will turn out in their senior year.</p>
<p>That's so true. Real-life example - I knew a girl in high school who stole her family's passports and sold them on the black market so she could buy drugs with the money. That was her sophomore year. By her senior year, she had been accepted into the Air Force Academy, was extremely active in the Christian youth groups at school, and was even voted to the "Mother Theresa" superlative in the yearbook. She was also prom queen. Total and completely transformation, inside and out.</p>
<p>I just had dinner with the Dean of Enrollment Services at Boston Conservatory last week (I helped her schedule her high school recruiting visit to Seoul), and when she told me how many people BoCo accepts into the freshman MT class every year (about 50, she said, and 5 or 6 transfers,) I assumed right away that they must cut a lot of them. So I asked her about it, and she said, "Oh, we had to cut 5 or 6 kids last year, but believe me, there were NO surprises." And she indicated that the kids in question had been showing very poor work ethic, cutting classes, poor grades, etc. She even went so far as to say it was "nothing like what you're describing at the University of Arizona." So according to her, BoCo should be considered in the ranks of schools like Syracuse. If their graduating class is smaller than the original freshman class, I bet it's because a lot of people leave on their own. Again, of the 11 people in my freshman MT class at U of Arizona, only 5 graduated. Half of the people who didn't graduate left on their own. Just expand those numbers to fit a class size of 50, and you can see how feasible it is that smaller graduating classes are not necessarily the result of a stringent cut policy.</p>
<p>I am very familiar with CCM's assessment policy. Here are some recent specifics - Last year CCM graduated 17 students from their musical theatre program. Last year's incoming freshman class totaled 16 students, this year's freshman class totals 24. When the freshman arrive at school they receive their initial assessment (voice, acting, dance) and they are given a written evaluation which provides them the feedback and the areas they need to work on. They are then assessed 3 more times during the course of the year. At their final assessment they need to receive a passing assessment to move forward to their sophmore year. All 16 freshman from last year's class received a passing assessment. One of the freshman over the summer decided not to return to CCM. If the student receives a passing assessment in their final assessment during their freshman year, they are guaranteed to be retained in the musical theatre program. CCM does not have a "mandatory" cut policy. If the CCM staff believes (based on the assessments, classroom work, etc.) that all of the students that they initially accepted into their program will eventually possess the necessary skill sets required to be successful in the musical theatre industry, then all will be retained. Unfortunately, not all of the students that are originally accepted will eventually acquire these necessary skills and others will decide that the pursuit of this career isn't for them. </p>
<p>As a parent one certainly has mixed emotions over any type of assessment policy that could lead to your child being removed from a program and where such a decision will greatly impact their dream. All students and familities must research all of the programs to determine the best fit for all. CCM is a tough program and certainly not for everyone - their direct critiques come fast and furious and I am sure some these critques are hard to hear. However, if a student does get through their program they will have developed a skin that is thicker than leather and this will equip them well for the musical theatre career they desire.</p>
<p>Just ask Shoshana Bean. :)</p>
<p>I would like to emphasize though that dwindling numbers from Freshman to Senior year, in an MT or Acting program, does not necessarily point to "cuts" or a student being "redirected". Keep in mind that these programs are extremely intense....24/7....and many kids especially in the Sophomore year may suddenly come to the brutal realization that the drive they really really thought was there, really really isn't. It's a true game of "Survivor"....and not necessarily with faculty or within the program itself, but personal drive & desire.</p>
<p>SUE</p>
<p>5Pants, I agree. At some schools, the numbers dwindled and not because the program did not allow the students to stay but because the students themselves for whatever reason, just did not know what they were getting into and realized that this kind of intense program was not for them. I know that at BOCO and Emerson, for example, they did speak of students who did not remain but the students realized it for themselves. A BFA program is not for everyone. I come across students who like MT a lot but I am not sure they have even lived the intense schedule in HS and have any clue of what being in a BFA program is like in college. It is not like going to regular college. I think some of the kids who survive are the ones who kept an insane schedule going into it and thrived on going 24/7 and this was all they want to do. I think some of the melt is from the reality of what this kind of program entails, in some cases. I think kids with lots of motivation and drive and very strong work ethics are more suited to this type of degree program.<br>
Susan</p>
<p>Exactly Susan!! AND until the students are in the thick of it they can not even comprehend the intensity. I am happy to report that the intensity has only fueled my guys' desires. In fact, instead of coming home over fall break, they stayed on campus...visited shows in the area, read through lots of scripts, vocalized, practiced piano, and other various things. Instead of escaping it, they indulged more....one must ask themselves if they are truly ready for that kind of committment...because it isn't for everyone. It must be your number one obsession.</p>
<p>SUE</p>
<p>Soozievt and 5pants you have hit the nail squarely on the head. At the end of my D's freshman year her roommate was cut from the program. She was a lovely girl and my D's best friend. It came as a complete shock for all of us, but even from the start this darling girl was not as committed as my D who has lived, breathed and dreamed musical theatre since the age of 4. I think that must have been obvious to the faculty. There is a difference between going through the motions (even convincingly), and knowing that you will curl up and die if you cannot do this the rest of your life. My D's friends in high school were all MT diehards, and my D sometimes commented to me that it was strange how little passion her roommate seemed to have for the thing in my D's life which was (is) all-consumming. The roommate was given the choice of staying at the University and changing her major or going into a B.A., but she chose to leave and is now at a different University which she adores. She has not surprisingly discovered that while she still enjoys MT she has very little interest in pursuing it professionally, and would much rather concentrate on Television and Film. One girl in my D's class chose to leave after her Junior year because she realized that she'd much prefer teaching choir! I do think a year or two of the intensity of a BFA in MT does tend to allow kids to reevaluate their decision: sometimes what seemed like a lot of fun in high school seems like a lot of work in college...and sometimes it seems like you have landed in heaven where 24/7 you are expected to keep MT in the forefront of your mind.</p>
<p>Soozievt and 5pants you have hit the nail squarely on the head. At the end of my D's freshman year her roommate was cut from the program. She was a lovely girl and my D's best friend. It came as a complete shock for all of us, but even from the start this darling girl was not as committed as my D who has lived, breathed and dreamed musical theatre since the age of 4. I think that must have been obvious to the faculty. There is a difference between going through the motions (even convincingly), and knowing that you will curl up and die if you cannot do this the rest of your life. My D's friends in high school were all MT diehards, and my D sometimes commented to me that it was strange how little passion her roommate seemed to have for the thing in my D's life which was (is) all-consumming. The roommate was given the choice of staying at the University and changing her major or going into a B.A., but she chose to leave and is now at a different University which she adores. She has not surprisingly discovered that while she still enjoys MT she has very little interest in pursuing it professionally, and would much rather concentrate on Television and Film. One girl in my D's class chose to leave after her Junior year because she realized that she'd much prefer teaching choir! I do think a year or two of the intensity of a BFA in MT does tend to allow kids to reevaluate their decision: sometimes what seemed like a lot of fun in high school seems like a lot of work in college...and sometimes it seems like you have landed in heaven where 24/7 you are expected to keep MT in the forefront of your mind.</p>
<p>oh! so sorry i hit that submit twice!!! I dont really think any of my opinions are worth repeating more than once!</p>
<p>Read ANY student handbook from any competitive drama program. I guarantee they will all stipulate that students remain in the program only at the discretion of the faculty. This does not mean that there are "quotas" that must be cut each year, but it leaves the option open to put students on warning, probabtion, and then ask them to leave if they haven't improved. This could be an improvement in work ethic, class attendance, skills - whatever.</p>
<p>sareccasmom, I hear ya. It is hard for me a bit as I counsel particular students who want to go into this but I am not sure they are cut out of for it and realize what it will involve and are not that driven or motivated type people before they got there. </p>
<p>And I must say that your comment about 'landing in heaven' hit home for me because what I have observed so far about my own freshman D in a BFA MT program is what I have told others who ask if she is enjoying college and that is....I keep saying she is like "in heaven". It is everything she has wanted for so long. Being immersed in the MT program, having that be such a core of her academic day, how much she is learning there, the other kids who share her passion, the experiences she is having, and just everything is what she has dreamt of doing for so long. In her case, she also seems to be thrilled to be on her own and living the college life and also her adventures in NYC, all of it. What not to like if this is what you care about and dream of and want? It is like going to heaven. That is exactly what it seems to be for her so far. I also have to say that besides the whole passion part of it....there is the whole work ethic and intensity. She ALREADY led a life of going round the clock seven days per week with school, homework, many extracurriculars in the performing arts and show rehearsals. She never had a lot of down time before either. I think she knew what she was getting into and wanted to very much. It is really fun to even have a lot of your school day be classes in performing arts when so much before was after school and at night to get to do this. I mean she loves everything she takes. Plus it takes her to the next level for which she felt ready. She sees how much there is to learn and she was ready to move beyond the local resources which were great but she had gone as far as she could there. So, the challenge of a BFA program is just what the doctor ordered! </p>
<p>Susan</p>