<p>Is this better?</p>
<p>CCM - six months up to after sophomore year
DePaul - after Fr yr
Ithaca - Juried regularly through soph yr, later on as needed basis
Syracuse - SOFT cut[a possible redirection to another major] after soph yr
U of AZ - after Fr & Soph yrs</p>
<p>Link explaining whats and whys of cut policies: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicalthe.../cutpolicy.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.geocities.com/musicalthe.../cutpolicy.html</a></p>
<p>believersmom: I think the point Susan was making is that a cut policy and a policy of "redirecting" are not even in the same ball park. EVERY school, I bet, is constantly looking at its students and "redirecting" someone who just might not belong in the program. This is no different than academic schools redirecting say a math major. It is not a cut policy. I do not believe that Syracuse belongs on your list at all.</p>
<p>So are you [or Susan] saying that the Syracuse redirection is optional? The student may choose to stay in the program if they wish? </p>
<p>No offense, but if it is not optional, then I would want my kid to know that in the decision making process, and I believe it does put them in the same category. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>I will leave it to Susan (or someone else) who knows more than I about the ins and outs of this to respond specifically. I guess what I was saying is that maybe EVERY MT program does what Syracuse does, some formally and some informally.</p>
<p>This is just to condense all the info in an easy and concise format. If Syracuse's policy is just a suggestion and is optional, then it shouldn't be on the list. Anyone know?</p>
<p>Again, if people could add to this list what they know to be fact, that would be helpful.</p>
<p>Schools with some sort of cut or weeding policy:</p>
<p>CCM - six months up to after sophomore year
DePaul - after Fr yr
Ithaca - Juried regularly through soph yr, later on as needed basis
Syracuse - soft cut after soph yr
U of AZ - after Fr & Soph yrs</p>
<p>Link explaining what and why of cut policy with this list: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicalthe.../cutpolicy.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.geocities.com/musicalthe.../cutpolicy.html</a></p>
<p>This idea of what is or is not a cut could depend on whether you are the one being cut (or potentially being cut). Imagine a student who wants MT or bust who shows himself lacking in an area that makes his success very doubtful. He needs to be "re-directed." But he will feel like he's cut and will feel badly. If I were him, I might be resentful for a long time. I might be grateful eventually. I also might prove them wrong eventually! But it still feels like a cut. However, the school cannot be blamed for doing the LIKELY right thing for the student. I say "likely" because it is impossible to be certain of someone's potential. It is possible for someone to flunk out of college and go back later and earn a PhD. A true cut system is one where the school PLANS to cut students no matter if they all do the work at least reasonably well. CCM is one school that is known for planning to cut students "no matter what." However, there might be other schools like this. Why does Boston Conservatory's freshman class dwindle to half size by graduation? Is it planned by the school or does it reflect problems with the program or the school? Re-directing means a student can still graduate from the college. Even CCM, though, must allow for some re-directing because "Idon'tknow" ended up staying at CCM last we heard and studying stage tech or a related field. Perhaps it's best to know the policy of each school one is contemplating attending and deciding if one is willing to live with the decisions of that department.</p>
<p>Perhaps the problem is that we are mixing the two kinds of programs that result in students being eliminated from an MT program. DoctorJohn talked about this in the original discussion - one program being the kind where they accept 100 freshmen to MT knowing that they can only graduate 60. I know that BoCo has been reported to be this kind of program. </p>
<p>The second kind is the one in which n (number of MT's) students start freshman year, and are expected to stay til senior year, but along the way they are evaluated and a few are found not to pass evaluations/juries, a couple leave the program because they figure out MT is not the career they thought they wanted, etc. I believe Syracuse and many other programs are of this variety. </p>
<p>These are two different kinds of systems. The first is a cut program. The second is an evaluation program which may RESULT in a student having to leave a program. I think the original post by DocterJohn is pretty clear, and I'm just restating what I learned from that original discussion.</p>
<p>The whole point of this thread is not to debate what is or isn't a "cut" policy, but to compile a list of schools that could opt to remove a student from the MT program after they have been admitted and have been attending the school. So how about this...</p>
<p>Schools with a cut, weeding, review or redirecting policy that could result in removal of a student from the MT program, but not necessarily the school, college, or university:</p>
<p>CCM - six months up to after sophomore year [Planned Cut]
DePaul - after Fr yr [Planned Cut]
Ithaca - Juried regularly through soph yr, later on as needed basis [Planned?]
Syracuse - Possible redirection after soph yr [not planned, but not optional if it happens?]
U of AZ - after Fr & Soph yrs [Unplanned?]</p>
<p>Link explaining what and why of cut policies: <a href="http://www.geocities.com/musicalthe.../cutpolicy.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.geocities.com/musicalthe.../cutpolicy.html</a></p>
<p>"Schools with some sort of cut or weeding policy:</p>
<p>CCM - six months up to after sophomore year
DePaul - after Fr yr
Ithaca - Juried regularly through soph yr, later on as needed basis
Syracuse - soft cut after soph yr
U of AZ - after Fr & Soph yrs"</p>
<p>All schools seem to have some kind of evaluation policy - otherwise, would a student really want to go there? Seems like a good school would have to have an evaluation procedure. So I think most if not all of the schools we discuss on this board have some means of evaluation in place. Can a 4min audition show work ethic? ability to work under pressure without cracking? ability to work as a team member? etc etc. Surely mistakes are made in putting together a freshman class on the basis of an audition, and evaluations are a way to keep quality high, I assume. </p>
<p>I prefer to think of the difference as CUT system vs EVALUATION system. They really are different.</p>
<p>The problem is I can't think of a school that wouldn't have the option to remove a student from a BFA program at some point.</p>
<p>That is clear. So my original title of the thread was incorrect. I am still, and I believe so are others, interested in knowing which schools have a NON-optional redirection OR cut policy, planned or not.</p>
<p>I am NOT saying that these schools are bad or that they shouldn't be considered. But we talk an awful lot on this board about the "realities" of how challenging this field is to get educated in and succeed in. This is another reality that needs to be clear in order to make the right decisions when evaluating and comparing the schools.</p>
<p>Do these schools not have grades?</p>
<p>Yes, they have grades, but there are so many ways that BFA's are evaluated that have nothing to do with grades. </p>
<p>For example, at some schools you can be asked to leave for cutting class. Even once or twice! (In other classes, the professor might not care if you are there or not if you get high grades on tests. That doesn't work for actors.) Another example: artistic progress, something that can't be measured in grades. I know little about this, I'm sure others know more, but those are two kinds of bases for negative evaluations that I know of.</p>
<p>I truly can't speak in any more depth about Syracuse but I do NOT see them as having a cut policy at all. If they did, my D would not have been interested in attending. For example, my D chose not to apply to CCM for a few reasons, as fantastic as that program is, and one was the cut policy. Hope that helps to explain the difference a little. </p>
<p>As NYTheaterMom writes, any college or educational program is going to evaluate students. They all have standards and expectations, as they should. Usually, if a student is not doing well, there are things in place such as probation or advisement with redirecting into a more appropriate course/program or whatever. A student who is failing or who does not come to class and puts nothing into school is an issue at ANY school. I'm an educator and you have to have something in place in terms of standards and procedures in those instances. All artistic programs should have evaluative reviews because it can't all be a written test. Those reviews should yield recommendations for improvement and so forth. This is guiding the learner. Some may do what Otterbein does which is to keep the student in the program but make them audition for the showcase. This is still a philosophy of nurturing the learner and striving to keep them in the educational program. Redirecting or advising a student is part of educating them. Cutting a student is a different matter entirely. Cutting based on numbers you want to graduate or cutting based on artistic talent/potential is another matter than not meeting requirements in the program. To me, the "cut" should be when they audition and apply to get in. Then the student is there to be nurtured with the hope of attaining the degree. That doesn't mean the student can do anything and still graduate but it means that the student will be evaluated, given areas to improve, may have to repeat something, or whatever. </p>
<p>I really do not think Syracuse belongs on the list because every program advises a student or gives them areas to improve, and so forth. Their program is not considered a cut program. But the best thing you can do, is to find out directly the policies and the philosophy and go from there. I would be concerned that any "posted" list not be misleading. For example, at first I opened the thread and saw Tisch on the list and thought that is too bad because someone might not apply who did not want a cut system and it is SO opposite from reality. The school clearly states that they do not believe in a cut system. Do they evaluate kids and advise them? Surely. If someone is doing very poorly with school, I am sure that they talk of how to improve that situation. But they do not make them leave the program. </p>
<p>Some schools, like I think Emerson does this, do have kids who go from the BFA into their BA program after a year or so but that decision is not so much forced as the kid also comes to realize that the BFA is not the most fitting type of degree program. There are some kids who realize for themselves that this is not a suitable "course". But advisement and evaluation and "improvement plans" or "probation" are still different than a cut policy because the school is working with the student to find the most apporpriate educational course for the student with the hope of keeping the student in college and nurturing them all the way through. This is not the same as having an evaluation and cutting kids before continuation into the next year of the program, with no chance to be in some probationary plan of improvement, but simply out of college. I recall reading about a young woman cut from CCM who then was cast as Millie on tour. I don't know her situation at school but clearly she was talented but maybe did not measure up by their standards there. To me, the "talent" cut should be at the point of admissions. After that, you work with students who are struggling but don't kick 'em out unless after all attempts, they are failing, missing classes, etc. Any school has to have recourse for failing students, except public K-12 schools which still keep the students. </p>
<p>At this point, I do not know any more about Syracuse to comment intelligently about any more details and as with ANY school, I would find out directly the policies and philosophy and go from there and not rely on what happened to so and so's friend. </p>
<p>To my knowledge, Syracuse would not be on a list of schools with a cut policy in the vein which cut policies are referred to as....or in a list such as one being made here. Call and find out more and maybe there is something I do not know about which is possible! I just know my kid would not have applied if it was a formal cut policy. We were not worried about her failing school so any other "soft" thing like you are talking about was not an issue here. Being cut based on talent evaluations or intentions to decrease the class size by graduation was a different story and too scary to contemplate being out of the college entirely and with no where to go at that point. </p>
<p>More than that, it also has to do with philosophy. Some programs have more of a nurture feeling of that you are there for four years and they are there with you every step of the way. There is the possible fear or worry in a program when you know you could be cut. </p>
<p>I'm not trying to knock cut programs as it is a personal choice. MY D opted to not apply to strict cut policy programs but I do recognize how great those programs are and if you do make it to the end, the school does have a fine reputation and wants their showcases to just reveal top talent. I like DoctorJohns' approach that they keep kids in the program but then they have to audition for the showcase, and that is another way to accomplish keeping the reputation of the senior showcase talent high. </p>
<p>For my own kid (and the decision was hers of course), I like the programs where they hope to keep you and work with you to help you be the best you can be. It is just a personal choice when finding programs that fit you. Look into their philosophies and decide. Do not rely too much on what others have said but go to the source.</p>
<p>Sorry Believersmom - I line up with the vast majority of posters here who believe that the clear difference is between a system with planned cuts, i.e., a true CUT SYSTEM vs almost any other program that you would actually want your student to attend i.e., one that is paying enough attention to your student's growth to notice when they are struggling and has a systematic way to evaluate their growth.</p>
<p>If by being so insistent that your list include ALL of the programs that do either of the above, you will be hard pressed to find a reputable program that ISN'T on your list. If you want a guarantee that your student has NO risk of being counseled to leave their school/program, perhaps a different major or a BA instead of a BFA might be a better choice. There are no guarantees in this business - starting with college.</p>
<p>I also think it is important to distinguish between evaluating students with standards with a CUT policy. The former situation is often on many college websites....it may say, "must maintain a 3.0" to stay in the major, for example. Also, I know at my D 's studio, you can not miss a class more than twice. There are standards in any program. If you do not meet those, schools should have recourse for probation, redirecting to another major, whatever. This is definitely different than cuts based on numbers in the class or talent or potential in the field or reputation of the program at their showcase and so on. In the cuts, often the student is totally out of luck and there often is no probationary period for improvement either.
Susan</p>
<p>theatremom-</p>
<p>I am looking for a school that does not "notice when they are struggling and has a systematic way to evaluate their growth..."</p>
<p>"If you want a guarantee that your student has NO risk of being counseled to leave their school/program..."</p>
<p>Could you please identify which number post in this thread it is where I said either one of these things?</p>
<p>I am talking about schools that regardless of whether a student is passing their classes or not MIGHT and CAN remove that student from the MT program whether the student wants to continue or not. NOT counseling or advising and giving the student the option.</p>
<p>I wish passing grades were a sure way to tell if a student, in any discipline, is competent to practice in that field upon graduation. Too bad more of my students were not "re-directed" by my university (written with a heavy heart, not a sharp tongue). </p>
<p>So what makes it more important for an MT BFA program than for an English department to weed out students with poor work habits, lack of discipline, who create problems for others, and so on, even if they get passing grades? I imagine that one of the reasons is that working in the performing arts is a series of collaborative projects where one person can have a serious effect on others. In my son's 8th grade play one supporting character decided to go shopping with her mom in San Diego instead of performing. Her absence threw off the other actors and everybody, especially the audience, had a bad night.</p>
<p>I worry about labeling schools this way. I know for a fact that there are certain schools who would be offended to be labeled in this manner...even as a soft cut. This is a real gray area and I don't think it's one that I would want to add to. My humble opinion.</p>
<p>I would just say that buyer beware...look into your schools throughly before accepting.</p>
<p>SUE</p>
<p>Oh I give up.</p>
<p>Feel free everyone to let this thread die. Or Moderators delete it entirely.</p>
<p>First let me say that my kid has nothing to do with this discussion, I am just a mom trying to get some information from people on the front lines.</p>