Hello - my daughter is struggling to find a school that has programs that fits what she wants to do - She is extremely interested in Environmental engineering, but also wants to have the ability to study liberal arts / public policy…
My question is - is there a ‘list’ of higher education schools that offer flexible engineering programs (maybe thats defined as ‘you dont apply to the engineering program, you apply to the school…’) that allow for taking liberal arts classes as well?
I am not 100% clear on the question here. Just because you apply to a college versus a department doesn’t really tell you much about how much time there will be for non-engineering electives.
The biggest problem here is that engineering degrees necessarily have quite a few required courses that build on one another and take up a lot of time. Many of those topics have to be covered in some way in order to maintain ABET accreditation. At the same time, schools (particularly public schools) are pretty much universally facing pressure to limit the total number of credit hours required for a degree in order to encourage students to finish in 4 years and spend less money. (I think that amounts to fixing the wrong problem because it’s easy rather than attempting to fix the real problems, but that’s a whole different topic).
In short, that means that engineering programs must cover a rather large minimum amount of content while also staying within a certain credit limit, and that tends to push out free electives in many cases.
I think the OP is interested in options that have the engineering curriculum open to all students instead of requiring additional competition to get into engineering and/or the major after being accepted by the college/university that also offers plenty of liberal arts courses to choose from as well. If so, Case Western would be an option since it allows students to study and change to any major once accepted.
All ABET-accredited engineering degree programs include at least 25% of the curriculum in math and science (which are liberal arts) and an unspecified percentage in general education (in practice, between 12% and 25% of the curriculum in humanities and social studies, though details vary by school). So 37% to 50% of the curriculum will be in liberal arts.
With respect to the question of whether the desired engineering majors are enrolled to capacity and therefore are competitive admission beyond admission to the school, that needs to be checked for each school. Some variations:
A. Apply to the school, and the engineering majors are open majors (i.e. no requirements higher than 2.0 GPA and/or C grades in the prerequisites to declare the major). Often found at super-selective schools with enough money to over-provision their engineering departments, and at much less selective schools where relatively few students are interested in and can handle the rigor of engineering majors.
B. Apply to the major at the school, which may mean a higher level of selectivity than the school generally. Some such schools may admit some applicants to the school but not the major; those who enroll may face a competitive admission process to get into the major later. At least one school (Wisconsin) has progression requirements to stay in engineering majors; for some majors, this can require a college GPA as high as 3.5 in technical courses and 3.0 overall. However, most schools that use this method allow students to stay in the major if they remain in good standing (2.0 GPA and/or C grades).
C. Apply to the engineering division, then select a major later after completing prerequisites. In many cases, admission to some majors is competitive by college GPA, so that some students may not be able to get into the specific engineering major that they want (although they will be allowed into a less popular one). Those who enter the school outside the engineering division are likely to find getting into any engineering major much more difficult.
Note that B and C are common among popular state flagship level schools.
The program cited at Cal Poly is not ABET accredited. It is intended for students that want a technical background but do not intend to be practicing engineers. One might choose this route for banking or specialized law or to advise on public policy. There are certainly others out there. The BA 4 year program at Dartmouth would be another. As others have said, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
A friend of mine at CU decided at the outset to major in engineering (civil) but to take 5 years so that she could take more A&S courses. I think the ‘regular’ ABET accredited programs allow 15-18 credits that are non-engineering but still have some requirements (English with writing, humanities). If you have some of those requirements down from high school AP or dual enrollment, you have more options for those 15 credits. My daughter had to take 19 credit this semester (to grad on time) because she didn’t take on of the humanities courses when it was scheduled on her chart of courses. There just isn’t a lot of flexibility.
Even if the engineering classes were open to other university students, would you have the pre-reqs if you aren’t an engineer? Enough math and other sciences to take a design course?
Every college degree program includes room for electives in the liberal arts. It can be difficult to double major with engineering, but it should be easy to add classes in political science to an engineering degree just about anywhere. You can also look at minors.
if she doesn’t want to commit to being an engineering major, she should still apply as one if a university requires you to apply by major. It is usually easier to switch from engineering to liberal arts than vice versa.
Smaller more selective private schools like those in post 5 and similar may let you into any major you’d like to declare when you arrive, but if you don’t start and stay on the right course tracks it gets hard to finish an engineering degree in four years. So, you still have to decide pretty quickly whether you want to be an engineer.
She might consider University of Arizona. Most engineering students there start as engineering-undeclared, with an easy switch into a specific major after the first year, but I believe it’s also possible to start in another major and switch into engineering after taking the prerequisite courses. We’ve visited UAZ twice with two kids. Neither ended up attending but we came away very impressed with their programs (engineering and other) both times.
Another is Trinity University in TX. It’s a liberal arts college that offers engineering. She may be able to accomplish what she wants there.
Liberal arts colleges that offer engineering do not accomplish what she wants. They are also constrained by the ABET guidelines. We visited all the East Coast usual suspects before my son chose a school and found that there was no more history, arts and social sciences than any of the other schools he visited, but they all had substandard facilities compared to the “real” programs. The only program he found that sort of came close to the blend of a broad arts, history and social sciences with ABET accredited engineering was Dartmouth’s 5 year BE program. You get an engineering program that isn’t very respected within engineering, the inability to use any AP credit all for the grand total of $300k. It didn’t seem that attractive. You could really replicate the experience anywhere by simply planning on being at any school for 5 years. BTW, he’s a ME senior at Cal Poly. Good luck!
Not really. The problem is that traditional (ABET-accredited) engineering programs have such extensive requirements that it is hard to add much “flexibility”. If you want to graduate in four years, you have to hit the ground running as a freshman, and then stay focused on the engineering requirements for the rest of your undergraduate career. This issue affects all engineering programs, even at liberal arts colleges that offer them.
Some schools, like Cal Poly or Dartmouth, do offer non-ABET engineering degrees (typically a BA, rather than a BS) that are more flexible and can more easily accommodate double-majors. But such degrees will not have the same value with traditional engineering employers as ABET degrees; they may be perceived as “engineering lite”. At Dartmouth, you can go from the BA to a full ABET BS (and most of their students do), but it normally takes a fifth year.
In architecture, there are two routes to the professional (NAAB-accredited) degree. One way is to intensively focus on architecture as a undergraduate, to earn a professional BArch degree. Alternatively, it’s common to get a more flexible, non-NAAB bachelor’s degree in something like “architectural studies” as an undergraduate, and then top it off with a professional MArch degree in grad school.
Many people would like to see engineering move in the same direction; i.e. with two “boarding stations” to the professional degree, instead of only one. In theory, it’s possible to get an ABET MS degree, but in practice they are still scarce. Texas Tech has an ABET Master’s in EnvE.
Another program like this is the Integrated Degree in Engineering, Arts and Sciences (IDEAS) at Lehigh. It’s a well-regarded program, but the same qualifier applies:
These programs could be good if you are planning a career in a non-engineering field where some knowledge of engineering would be useful. They aren’t ideal if you are planning a career in engineering itself (unless you are prepared to go beyond four years to add an ABET degree).
Have her look at Georgia Tech which is flexible in terms of not being locked into a certain Engineering major and had the Nun School of Public Policy. Programs like the International Plan, Denning and Grand Challenges (which my DD is in and loves) may be what she is interested in. Look around GT’s website since I know DD’s roommates do environmental engineering and liberal artsy/public policy specialties but I can’t remember the program’s name. P.S. if she likes GT makes sure she applies early action which is Oct.15 because her admission chances are better.
Maybe check out this program, at Lafayette (a liberal arts college with engineering):
Lafayette, like many schools, offers environmental engineering as a concentration within the civil engineering program. So you would get an ABET BS degree in civil, with an environmental concentration. Lafayette indicates that the dual-degree program can be completed in four years, but it looks like this may include one summer term.
Another thing to consider—will your D have a lot of AP or dual enrollment credit when she finishes high school? If she does, she should consider how colleges treat that credit. Choosing a college that is generous with AP credit may allow her more space in her schedule to pursue her public policy interests while still graduating in four years. My D had all of her general education requirements covered with AP credit at the college she chose, and used the space that freed to pursue a coterminal masters.
Note that BArch programs are 5 year programs, since the requirements are even more voluminous than for engineering BS programs. So a BA/BS in architectural studies + MArch may be only a year longer than a BArch.
Another type of second “boarding station” exists for engineering, in the form of 3+2 programs. However, relatively few frosh attending “3” schools make the transfer to the “2” schools to complete the engineering bachelor’s degrees. Also, many of the “3” schools restrict the students’ majors there, rather than allowing them to major in anything as long as they complete the lower level engineering prerequisites.
The “boarding station” term comes from the linked story that the OP posted:
It’s a reasonable analogy. If you start college as an engineering major, then switching to something else will probably be easy. But if you start college as something else, then switching to engineering will probably be harder.
Does she want the engineering degree or just to take some of the environmental engineering courses? Some schools have environmental design, environmental constructions, etc that may have some overlap with engineering but do not result in an engineering degree.
My daughter’s BF graduated with a construction management degree and he was in the college of engineering, but doesn’t have an engineering degree. I think a lot of his course requirements were in the business school, but he did take a lot of the same courses as she did (civil engineering).
