<p>"At Boston College, "90% of of BC applicants with at least a 3.2 science gpa and at least a 9.0 on the MCAT were admitted to medical school" for the Class of 2004 (this is from the 2005 BC bulletin). BC profs mostly grade on the curve and BC does not have in-/de-flation."</p>
<p>I'll bet that's true. And I'd also bet that the 3.2 at B.C. would have a 3.5 at UMass-Amherst, and with that gradepoint average and MCAT score, 95% would be admitted to med school.</p>
<p>The med school acceptance rate tells you virtually nothing but the potential weed-out rate of folks who would be perfectly capable doctors if they'd gone elsewhere.</p>
<p>NONE of the so-called "top" schools will reveal the most important data - what percentage of students who enter thinking they are pre-med go on to med school. They all have this data, but they won't publish. And the reason they won't is because it would be very embarrassing.</p>
<p>There are some colleges, like Case Western, where you can enter a pre professional school program (med school, law school) and all you really have to do is maintain a 3.5 average during your undergrad years there to be accepted into their professional school. Now, of course this is not always easy to do. We were thinking about these options.</p>
<p>the data about 'how many started as premeds' would be meaningless. many students start college with a goal in mind and change their minds-they may realize they want to do something else. They may take prerequisite courses and do horribly(a D in calculus, a C- in chemistry) and realize that they do have the academic skills to pursue this route etc.. so, many potential or starting 'premeds' 'self-select' themselves out of the game before their junior year. I really think the basis should be, how many junior premeds-who stuck with it and really want to become a physician-apply and get in from a particular school. At some LACs, it really is well above 80%. The is also the qualitative difference bewteen a large state univeristy-wher a freshman biology class may have 100 students(in a class of 250) raise their hands to the question "how many of you are premed?"-with their average SAT score 0f 1100 and 3.0 high school average as compared to the freshamn biology class at Swarthmore, Davidson and Williams where perhaps 15 students(in the class of 30) who had 1400 SAT scores and were top students. These type of students should be expected to have gotten into medicaal school if they wanted it. They would also have gotten in if they has attended a state school, but elected not to. These boutique colleges have high acceptance rates to professional schools for a myriad of reasons, but one of the reasons is -creme de la creme in, creme de la creme out.</p>
<p>Oh, fair enough. I don't disagree. All I think is that they are more meaningful than acceptance rates, which doesn't say much. Students who would be middle of the class at JHU or Duke would be top of the class at the local state university. Because they are top of the class, and not competing with top-rank graduate students, they'd likely have more research opportunities, and better mentoring.</p>
<p>Creme in and creme out is precisely what one sees, EXCEPT in the weed-out pre-med factories like JHU, where lots of the creme is left behind. If you could get into JHU or Duke or wherever, you likely COULD go to medical school had you gone elsewhere.</p>
<p>But if you want to be SURE, you should go to Hope.</p>
<p>Students might "self-select" out, but it could be because... half the grades given out are Cs and Ds! At other schools, the students would have gotten As without killiing themselves, but, at top schools, the curve forces a lot of them to drop.</p>
<p>you are 1/2 right and 1/2 wrong; being at the top of the class at a low-rated megaversity may transform into a high GPA, but often does not transfer into a high MCAT. Medical school adcoms frequently deal with the following scenario: student A went to Large State U- has a GPA of 3.8 and an MCAT 0f 25; student B went to very competitive LAC and has a GPA of 3.2 and an MCAT of 31-that is why it makes a differnence where you go for some students. If you have a high GPA and a high MCAT-it really does not matter very much where you went-but that does not happen as often as you think. Mini's point, and its true, is that some really bright students, who want to go to medical school, would be best off if they settled for a less competitive college and be at the top of the class rather easily and live happily ever after. Th eproblem on this board is convincing the 1440 SAT 3.9 GPA student to forget HYP and the top LACs and go Rhodes or Hope or Juniata and succeed with a near 100% odds of getting in rather than duking it out with your fellow overachievers at the top schools-but is a hard sell.</p>
<p>I assumed same students with same MCATs. And the "really bright" students are those who are talking about JHU and Duke, etc. They WANT to hear that JHU and Duke are better for med school - and they are probably are, for the very top students at each. But for the average bright student? I doubt it is even close, which is why the schools won't reveal the data.</p>
<p>Of course, the much bigger issue is how to go about paying for it.</p>
<p>"Top LACs like Williams, Amherst, and Swarthmore all have very high acceptance rates into med school--ranging from 85-95%."</p>
<p>Yeah, I went to one of those, though it was back in the dark ages. Took freshman bio, though I wasn't a premed. Got C's. Lots did worse. The "premed class" went from about 100 to 30 in a single year. 85 of them would have been wonderful docs; probably 70 of them would have gone to med school had they attended their local state university. Only 27 or so got in. The school claimed an acceptance rate of 90%. Totally bogus.</p>
<p>on a recent tour of georgetown, our tour guide stated that the med school acceptance rate was...i think she said 87%...which quite surprised me.</p>
<p>A lot of this underlines the problem with med school admissions - they are so focused on GPA that they don't realize (or fully account for) the differences in schools. If you even make it through the Williams pre-med track, you're in the top bunch of a group of extraordinarily talented students. Same can't be said for kids coming out of schools that don't have the weed-out or high quality of students. It's easy to forget that very talented, motivated, bright students are being weeded out at the best schools.</p>
<p>Don't med schools also place a lot of emphasis on MCAT scores? If so, it seems it would be a good idea to ask each school about their average MCAT scores, including the number of students taking the MCAT.</p>
<p>I also would ask a lot of questions about the level of support for pre-med students - How many fail OChem in a typical year? Is there tutoring available? Help studying for the MCAT? What happens if you fail or are struggling in one of the required premed classes? Who are the pre-med advisors? etc.</p>
<p>The best question I can think of (for a Duke or a JHU, etc) is "what research opportunities and mentoring are available for students who are in the bottom half of the class, and how active is the college in ensuring that these students get them?" Remember, no matter where you go to college, 50% of the students are going to be in the bottom half of the class, and the more competitive the school, the more likely it is that it would include YOU!</p>
<p>"Students who would be middle of the class at JHU or Duke would be top of the class at the local state university."</p>
<p>This seems like an exageration. Perhaps it just depends on the state, but i'm sure there are driven students at any state school who are as capable as these people who go to U XYZ.</p>
<p>i'm sure there are driven students at any state school who are as capable as these people who go to U XYZ.</p>
<br>
<p>Yes, there are, and they end up in the top 10% at the state school, right where those Duke students would likely be if they'd gone there. The issue with state schools isn't whether the brightest kids are Ivy-caliber -- of course they are -- it's the fact that each class also has a lot of filler students doing a "2.0 and go." Being at the 50th %ile at Duke is EXTREMELY different from being at the 50th %ile at Podunk State.</p>
<p>AND, unlike those at the 50%tile or below at Duke or JHU or an Ivy, they will get the best research opportunities and mentoring, where at the so-called "better" schools, they are likely to be "weeded out". </p>
<p>Anyhow, if you ask the school my question above, and you don't get a straight answer, you'll know where you stand.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The issue with state schools isn't whether the brightest kids are Ivy-caliber -- of course they are -- it's the fact that each class also has a lot of filler students doing a "2.0 and go."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Exactly. The top students at state schools (or whatever) might have turned down great schools because they got merit aid or wanted to stay close to home.</p>
<p>But the weed-out process only kills those who don't want it that much in the first place. Granted, it would take a lot of hard work. But I can almost guarantee you that if a student is able to get into JHU/Duke/etc, that student is capable of the work...if they want to put forth the effort.</p>
<p>True. Which is what makes the weed-out that much more tragic. They DID want it, but regardless, 50% of them will be in the bottom half of the class.</p>
<p>I disagree that the weed-out process only kills those who didn't want it.</p>
<p>Curves are curves. If 50% of the class gets a C or D in organic chemistry, then 50% of the class will be weeded out. It doesn't matter if 20% of that class or 90% of that class is super-bright, super-motivated people - half are getting grades which will preclude them from being doctors.</p>
<p>If those people went to other schools, they would have been at the top of their class.</p>
<p>I realize that. What I'm trying to say is that at those top-tier schools, capability is less important than passion. To get into the Ivys, you are obviously capable, as is the rest of your class. So in order to find the top half that is not weeded out, it is going to be the top half that tries the hardest and wants it the most. Sure, in every class you'll have your few "genius level students" and "shouldn't even be there students". But for the majority of the class, its just a matter of who puts forth the most effort.</p>