<p>I saw bright people who work extremely hard and have wanted (badly) to be doctors get weeded out of those systems. I'm trying to say that, along with those who don't really want it, there are a lot of passionate, bright, hard-working people who get weeded out as well. Very imperfect system.</p>
<p>At least at top schools like Duke and Penn, I've definetely heard of students dropping out of pre-med and switching majors drastically.</p>
<p>Aren't curves lower at State schools than places like Duke, JHU, etc.?</p>
<p>Not for top students at the state schools. That's the whole point. Had they gone to the "best pre-med" schools, many fine doctors would never have become doctors at all. They would have, on the whole, had fewer research opportunities and less mentoring, and might have been left without any recommendations from the school's "med-school" committee that feels it has to defend its acceptance rate.</p>
<p>I have a few statistics for med school acceptance rate:</p>
<p>Princeton- 90%
Amherst- 95%
Washington and Lee Univ.- 85%
William and Mary - ~75-80%</p>
<p>That's all i know, sorry!</p>
<p>Berry College's acceptance rate was last reported as 100%. (Was that helpful?)</p>
<p>mini, after reading your 2nd to last post, I understand where you are coming from. If that is truly the case with these schools, then that makes my decison a lot easier about where to apply. I realize this sort of effect happens to some degree at almost any university. However, what about the schools that aren't Ivies/Duke? I'm sure this applies to all the schools in the Top 15 or so, but what about the schools that are ranked from 16-25? Does this same thing happen at them to the same magnitude as the JHU-type schools out there?</p>
<p>(asking specifically b/c my top 3 choices right now are Duke, Vanderbilt, and Rice)</p>
<p>LnKinPrk777, you might want to ask mini if he has any data to back up this assertion:</p>
<br>
<p>Had they gone to the "best pre-med" schools, many fine doctors would never have become doctors at all</p>
<br>
<p>before you use it as a basis for decisions about where not to apply.</p>
<p>I'm rather curious about that myself.</p>
<p>Which is why I said "if" that was really the case. ;-)</p>
<p>Smart kid...you're going to be fine.</p>
<p>If you are sure you are pre-med, go where you'll feel challenged and do well, and make sure you've got some money left over (I've seen students with $100k debt from their undergrad, and then they'll be $200k more for med school, and it will take 15-20 years to pay off, or they are heavily limited the type of medicine they can practice. Some folks are comfortable with that, of course. To each his/her own, just know what you are facing.)</p>
<p>If you can get into ANY of these schools, you can get into med school. Just be sure you know what you're getting into, and you'll be fine.</p>
<p>Just a note about weeding out pre-meds:</p>
<p>I can't speak for any school other than Williams, but Williams doesn't weed-out premeds currently. While some schools may follow this practice, everything I've heard and experienced of pre-med at Williams shows that this is simply not the case. </p>
<p>Pre-med will be a difficult course of study at any college, but I would be surprised if it is relatively anymore difficult at Williams than anywhere else.</p>
<p>It is correct to note that top schools see exceptional med school acceptance rates partially because top students go to top schools. However, at schools like Williams (and other top LACs), med school candidates also have the significant advantage of professors who know them well (and thus tend to write stronger recs) and research opportunities unavailable to undergrads at most larger institutions.</p>
<p>However, regardless of what school you choose, the most important factor in deciding med school admission is your own performance in college. Exceptional students tend to get into med school whether their undergraduate alma-matter is Amherst or U-Mass. Pick your college based on what feels right for you rather than which has a 6% higher or 10% lower med school acceptance rate.</p>
<p>EVERY school weeds out premeds through classes like orgo and intro bio.</p>
<p>Personally, I think the people who benefit the most from going to a state school or less tougher school are those who are hanging around the 3.0-3.2 GPA level at the name-brand schools.</p>
<p>I attend Cornell University and current have a 3.85 after two years (all my premed requirements have been fulfilled). Cornell's acceptance rate among applicants with 3.8+ GPA's is 99% the past two years. Furthermore, 26 out of 43 applicants with 3.8+ GPA's last year had 35+ MCAT scores while nationally only 5% score 35 or above. Obviously, I'm not regretting going to Cornell.</p>
<p>However, I see lots of people with GPA's in the low 3's. They would have much better GPA's at a state school and probably a better shot at med school admissions which is largely numbers driven.</p>
<p>Maybe, but maybe not. The same people might do the same amount of work at the state schools. You guys assume so many factors when you make these sorts of generalizations. Is it possible? Yes. But likely? That is questionable. Some people in college feel that they want a break, and that getting the B is good enough, be it in state school or Harvard.</p>
<p>norcalguy</p>
<pre><code> I do not think the issue is with students who have, like you, very high GPA and high MCAT scores-individuals, like you, will get in, no matter where they went undergrad. People with your record from Cornell will likely go to an Ivy league med school. Most premeds just want to get into any med school. The underlying theme of this discussion seems to be that med school adcoms just look at GPA's and do not care where you got that GPA-and that is a false premise. Med school adcoms do take into account the rigor and selectivity of the undergrad college-especially when the GPA and MCAT scores are discordant(eg 3.8 GPA and 25 MCAT from one college and someone else with a 3.2 GPA and a 32 MCAT-which I bet happens a lot at Cornell)-when the adcom see these discordant records-they look at what college the GPA is coming from. There are many hidden factors that go into the process as well(clinical experiences, shadowing opportunities, research, personal attention etc) that some of the small 'boutique' LACS are extremely good at. One med school admissions dean(friend of my fathers) has told me that they frequently turn down students with very high GPA's and high MCAT scores because they have done nothing else to show any interest in medicine(such students are frequently asian he noted) an dit takes more than high scores these day to get into medical school. So, this discussion about the hypothetical student who would end up with a 3.1 GPA at Williams or Cornell, who 'could have had' a 3.8 at Slippery Rock University of Pennsylvania, so would have been better off going there, is a bit disingenuous, as it is more than a numbers game.
</code></pre>
<p>DRab: The difference is that they could do the same amount of work at MIT vs. a state college and get drastically different grades. I would even argue that if I were at another (less tough) school, I would do LESS work but I'm pretty sure I'd have better grades nonetheless.</p>
<p>Hubbellgardner: I simply don't think med schools compensate enough for the rigor of a school's education. The avg. GPA at grade inflated schools is around 3.3-3.4+ while the GPA's at places like Berkeley or Cornell are around 3.0-3.1. There is no way they're simply going to tack on an extra 0.3 onto your GPA. While EC's, interviews, personal statements, etc. are very important, the preliminary elimination process is simply based on your GPA and MCAT scores. If you can't even get past the first round of eliminations, you won't even get a chance to show off your interviewing skills or EC's.</p>
<p>As I have noted, I have benefitted enormously from going to a rigorous school. In my MCAT class are kids from some very good local schools (Cal, Stanford, UCSD, etc.) and most of them seem to be clueless half the time to MCAT material while I know around 95% of the material that's been taught in the class. Not surprisingly, I scored a 30 on Princeton Review's diagnostic MCAT after 1 week of classes. I have nothing to attribute that to except all the time I spent at Cornell studying.</p>
<p>But there are a lot of students hovering around the 3.0 GPA mark at tough schools. From my interactions with them, I personally feel they'd achieve at least a 3.5-3.6 GPA at a state school. A 3.6 is a lot more competitive than a 3.0. While you can argue that a prestigous school will offer them better EC's, more research opportunities, a better education, the fact still remains that the goal is to get as deep into admissions process as possible and with a 3.0-3.2 many of these kids wouldn't even receive a secondary.</p>
<p>Hope College has a 91.2% med school admission rate (higher than Princeton and Yale and a host of other places), with no pre-selection, and no med-school committee.</p>
<p>There is a small school in PA (Washington and Jefferson) that has claimed some extremely high med school admissions, but I can't find the documentation. Can only find something that says Temple U gurarantees 4 med school admissions spots to W&J students. can anyone find the med school admissions stats from W&J? This was a real surprise to me when I first read it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But the weed-out process only kills those who don't want it that much in the first place. Granted, it would take a lot of hard work. But I can almost guarantee you that if a student is able to get into JHU/Duke/etc, that student is capable of the work...if they want to put forth the effort.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'll put it to you this way. Take premeds at Berkeley. Of the Berkeley premeds from 1999-2003 who applied to med-school and had both a 3.9+ GPA and a 35+ MCAT, 8% of them STILL got rejected from every med-school they applied to. I'd rather think that if you can get those kinds of stats, you probably put forth a considerable amount of effort. Yet these students not only didn't get into the top med-schools, they didn't get into ANY med-schools they applied to.</p>
<p>Or take a gander at the MIT data. The average MIT premed who applied to med-school had a 3.62/4 GPA and a 33.6 MCAT score. Yet the fact is, 23% of MIT premeds who applied to med-school didn't get in anywhere. I would say that getting a 3.6/4 at MIT is pretty darn good. Heck, getting even a 3.0/4 at MIT is no walk in the park. Yet the fact remains that a significant percentage of MIT premeds get rejected by every med-school they apply to.</p>
<p>There are really only 2 possibilities that I can see to explain this data, both of which I believe are unlikely. #1 - those who don't get in are people who don't do any EC's, didn't get good recs, didn't do any hospital volunteering, etc. Or, #2 - these people are only applying to the most elite med-schools are no safeties. </p>
<p>Neither of these reasons seem particularly credible. Both of them are premised on the same thing - simple foolishness on the part of the candidate. Yet these people are not fools. Far from it. These are people who have done quite well at MIT and Berkeley. Hence, they are some of the best med-school candidates in the country. It is a well-known fact among premeds that you need to have EC's, that you need to get people to write you good rec's, that you need to do some volunteering at a hospital, and that you need to have some safety schools. These are not 'secrets'. Everybody who knows anything about the med-school process knows that these are the things you have to do to get in. If you don't do these things, then you're being foolish. It would seem to me that because these premeds are some of the best in the nation, they are precisely the ones who would also be going out and doing all these things. If they don't do these things, then I would agree that they're foolish - but considering how strong their academic performance is, I doubt that they're foolish.</p>
<p>A third possibility is that Berry College and Hope College are doing something with their applicants that MIT is not - in other words, they are simply superior when it comes to pre-med; actually, very superior, when one considers the difference in admissions stats upon entry. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, the duck hypothesis should at least cross one's mind.</p>
<p>
[quote]
in other words, they are simply superior when it comes to pre-med; actually, very superior, when one considers the difference in admissions stats upon entry. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, the duck hypothesis should at least cross one's mind.
[/quote]
If I were a high-schooler considering pre-med, I'd sure as heck investigate this duck to find out what is in their water. Hope College's mid-range SAT = 1060 to 1310 and ACT = 23-28. 38% top 10% of class. (data from CB, likely 2004 entering class)</p>