<p>
[quote]
I think it's gross, for lack of a better word ,that a kid would take AP Lang & AP Lit even though he no interest in these subjects.
[/quote]
Good Lord, details. If having an interest in a subject were a pre-requisite for taking it, most h.s. classes would be empty. That's why we adults plan the curriculum & set graduation requirements. A well-rounded education is the goal. I agree with midmo that bio is essential knowledge for any educated person. I don't see how anyone could truly follow many important issues of the day without having at least the basics covered. D's school requires every girl to have a year each of bio, chem, & physics with labs or she can't graduate.</p>
<p>I bet your son's buddy develops a whole new appreciation of music after taking the AP music theory class, by the way.</p>
<p>I guess my D is planning something really gross for senior year: Taking AP Calc & Ap Physics "so I never have to take math & science again in my life."</p>
<p>Whoa everyone....
when I initially saw the title of this thread, "scratching our heads over rejection" I was curious, because that's what we had done. Just thought it was a place to verbally scratch my head over this (and vent obviously). I didn't intend to offend anyone. We're waaay over the Wesleyan thing, although it doesn't seem so here cuz discussing this churned up old frustrations ( and to whoever... no the GC didn't advise agaist Wes, on the contrary she & anyone and their brother thought it was the perfect fit despite bio blah blah, thus the frustration)As far as the AP issue, I'm not remotely suggesting that kids only take courses that they are interested in... but simply the keep the AP thing for those subjects you are truly passionate about. (shouln't be difficult to find your passions if you've maxed out honors courses) I think by forcing kids into unwanted AP courses we further fuel the mania & one upmanship(?) of the college process rather than instill a true love a learning. I don't object to kids taking AP classes if they like a given subject,
( but don't intend to major in that subject in college),but taking these (AP)courses in subjects they clearly
"hate" seems wrong and does not demonstrate a love of learning or a well rounded education, but rather the ability to go through the motions and robotically "fill in the blanks" dictated by the hype. Doesn't anyone see the difference?</p>
<p>Again, sorry to drive you guys crazy with my opinions. How's this for skyrocketing to most hated status as a new member! BTW, we're all thrilled about Vassar & their lib IS stellar.</p>
<p>I'l try to back away slowly now... perhaps I'll come back to annoy everone at a later date..... Thanks for listening!Good luck to eveyone and their kids!</p>
<p>Nah! We have short memories, and we all make each other nuts. Welcome.</p>
<p>Still, I do disagree with you about the AP's. Most academic kids want to take the most rigorous versions of courses offered, and that's what colleges expect them to do.</p>
<p>details - I think you're going to have to do a lot more to earn "most hated status." I do hope you see what happened here, though, which is that when a poster (new or otherwise) makes harsh negative and judgmental comments about the way other posters' families or children have done things or the choices they've made, that poster is likely to receive some pretty strong feedback.</p>
[quote]
and to whoever... no the GC didn't advise agaist Wes, on the contrary she & anyone and their brother thought it was the perfect fit despite bio blah blah
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I believe I was misunderstood when I said the GC did not advise your son well. I didn't mean regarding to his advice to apply to Wesleyan. Applying to Wesleyan sounds like a great idea to me for your son. What I think he did not advise him well on is that for elite colleges, they want to see Bio and Chem and usually Physics too ....some may be OK with Bio, Chem and Environmental or a a second year Bio or Chem rather than Physics. To eliminate both Bio and Chem was risky, is what I am saying. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I think by forcing kids into unwanted AP courses we further fuel the mania & one upmanship(?) of the college process rather than instill a true love a learning.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My children took the most demanding curriculum available at our rural public high school. The concept of "one upmanship" never arose in their thinking, nor ours. However, it is common knowledge that selective universities want to see students taking the most rigorous curriculum that they can handle. My kids are good students and took the hardest level of each core subject that our school offered. They also crave challenge and would not have been happy with a lower level course in those required core subject areas. It is not about one upmanship but about challenging oneself in high school in each subject area (core subjects are part of a HS prep curriculum whether you like the subjects or not....you have to take them), and about selective schools wanting to see that you have challenged yourself. The time to be more into selecting what to take that fuels your interests comes more into play in college. My kids HAD to take English, History, Science, Math and Foreign Language every year of HS in order to have a chance to get into a selective college, whether they like these subjects or not. Since they had to take them anyway, they challenged themselves with the appropriate level course for each core subject based on their ability. </p>
<p>Lastly, unrelated to those things.....your son is obviously very qualified. The thing is that Vassar took him and so there is some proof, not that you need it of course. With elite admissions, it is rare that a student gets into every elite school to which she/he applies. Example, my child was val and had a very strong profile. She was deferred/denied at Yale and waitlisted at Princeton. No upset or angry feelings. It goes with the territory. It wasn't like she wasn't good enough....her other acceptances reveal that not to be the case. But they can't take all who make the grade. We knew it and she knew it and there was not a need to call to ask why. Her GC was in shock that she didn't get into Yale but we were not. We know that the odds mean that qualified kids get turned away. This is what happened to your son at Wesleyan and he was qualified but Wes said no and Vassar said yes. The odds would predict such an outcome. Wesleyan can only take so many. Let's say they took your son.....and whomever now has his "slot" got rejected instead. You can bet that kid is just as qualified and as worthy of admission to Wes as your son. Some are gonna be left out. They are not all "less qualified." Your son has the 'goods' but his turn just did not go in his favor at Wes. They have to pick and choose and make tough choices. If your son had gotten in and one of the current admits was denied, that person would have to have a "reason" and that reason may make just as little sense to you as the reason given for your son. I am not sure what you might expect the college to do in these situations. I say to come to expect this and it goes with the territory of elite college admissions. I would look at his overall result. Out of two elite colleges, Wesleyan and Vassar, he got into one. Major success story! I can't even imagine calling the other and asking why he didn't get in. I would have not assumed he'd get in in the first place, even if super qualified.</p>
<p>One other comment about AP courses. . . I'm somewhat skeptical of most h.s. kids' assertions that they "hate" a subject. At least with my own children, it usually meant that they'd never had a really good or inspiring teacher in the subject. In our high school, the AP courses are where one finds the best teachers, so it's entirely possible that a kid who didn't think he'd like a subject but signed up for the class for whatever reason might end up loving it. </p>
<p>Some of the differences in philosophy about whether a student should challenge himself in an AP subject that he isn't crazy about are reflected in the choices of colleges. I don't know what requirements Wesleyan has, but I think Vassar has next to no required courses (or very loose requirements, if they do have some). Some students want colleges that have distribution requirements or even core curricula. Some want colleges with no required courses. Just different preferences. Vassar sounds perfect for your son.</p>
<p>When my D was going through the process, she was waitlisted (and ultimately rejected) at one of her top choices. She definitely had the stats to get in, but she had taken a light science load in high school (3 years, no AP). Or maybe the admissions committee didn't care for her essay. Or they remembered her as the ditzy kid who left her purse at the admissions office and they had to mail it to her. Who knows? Ah well, she has "found herself" at her other top choice.</p>
<p>Now I'm pondering whether to have S continue in AP English his senior year. It's AP Literature, which means he would have to read more books in which he has no interest. Now if only they had an AP course in sci fi/fantasy literature!</p>
<p>Don't feel you have to leave details. I have to admit I didn't know it was possible to graduate high school without taking chem and bio because they are required of every student at our high school, as well as earth science and physics. This is at a very mediocre school with only about 40% college bound graduates. A lot of those kids are taking a very basic course but they get some exposure. </p>
<p>Since we're talking about Wesleyan, I can't help but think of The Gatekeepers. It showed how it didn't take much to keep a student out, and the importance of the high school guidance counselor's relationship with the admissions rep. You might want to check it out at the library if you've never read it.</p>
<p>Should I be concerned that my aspiring math-major daughter wants to take AP English over an AP science next year? She'll have AP Calc BC next year and will have completed APUSH and AP Euro. And that's it for APs. They only offer one secion of each AP course and tend to schedule them the same blocks. She will have the four main sciences done at honors level completed this year.</p>
<p>nceph, both Wesleyan AND Vassar have an open curriculum with no distribution or core requirements and then have requirements for their concentrations (majors), similarly to my D's school, Brown.</p>
<p>Thanks, Soozie. I thought I had read something about Wesleyan having some "general education expectations" and wasn't sure if those were distribution requirements.</p>
<p>I apologize about my post #190. Actually, Wesleyan does have some "general education expectations" in certain areas and doesn't have the open curriculum like Vassar (or Brown). I was too quick to post and got confused there. Like you say, however, Vassar sounds perfect for details' son as he can take whatever he wants!</p>
<p>Wesleyan has distribution "expectations": three courses in each of three broad areas -- math/natural science; social/behavioral science; humanities/arts. It is not necessary to satisfy this to graduate; it generally is to recieve honors. Not much of a burden.</p>
<p>To clarify, Wes lists expectations, but they are not exactly requirements:</p>
<p>
[quote]
A student who does not meet these expectations by the time of graduation will not be eligible for University honors, Phi Beta Kappa, honors in general scholarship, or for honors in certain departments.
<p>That's an interesting approach to distribution "expectations." I've never run across that sort of approach before. Sort of strong encouragement but no mandate.</p>
<p>Thanks guys! Glad to hear that you have long term memory problems!</p>
<p>I think my AP opinions have been heavily influnced by my husband(head of the English dept at my son's school) & his fellow teachers. I often hear them complain about grade grubbers/AP grubbers who clearly take those courses as a means to an end (believe me they can tell the differnce). My husband actually attended a summer program about teaching APs several years ago and found that he already was teaching most everthing required of AP lit, & AP this & that etc without the designation. Therefore he refuses to label them as such,so as not to limit "how" he teaches. Apparently there is very specific criteria that comes with the AP designation and teachers often find themselves rushing through the material, unable to stop to have discussions that normally, organically come while teaching and this is very frustrating for them. His, (my husbands) students are well prepared to take the AP exam(s)anyway at the end of the year & do very well, if they choose to do that. He objects to teaching to a test, which apparently a teacher must do( for the AP designation), and cover very specific material, very quickly, without time for discussion which he (as well as peers) find so frustrating. Most of the "regular" courses at this school would be considered honors courses at our local public schools and the honors courses likewise are often AP level without the designation. Thanks for listening!</p>
<p>BTW, Vassar also has the flexible requirements like Wesleyan such as a quantitative course (science math etc), a foreign language & a Freshman Seminar course which "stresses the expression of written & oral ideas" (changes annually, I think)</p>
<p>The best (to my mind) academic private school around here offers exactly 0 AP courses, for precisely the reasons details gives. Of course, they cover most of the material on the relevant AP tests in their non-AP courses.</p>
<p>Selective colleges seem not to hold it against the students there. (It did, however, suck when my daughter transferred to an "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that AP designation" high school.)</p>
<p>JHS
thanks for getting it. As a parent, we are told by my son's school's GC that colleges are quite familiar with this school's curricula & get that the level of courses are more rigorous than in public schools. I do know that some parents and or students are sometimes frustrated with the lack of "designated" English AP classes, but my husband holds firm on this. He's opinionated too. Guess we're made for each other!</p>
<p>I thought I said I was leaving! This is sort of addicting. Don't I have laundry to fold?</p>
<p>Well, it's a fallen world. Often idealism and reality crash into each other. In a perfect world details' husband's ideas would prevail, but in this world, ah. To be fair, I think both my kids benefitted from all their AP classes and D was the leader in bio lab in college. Unusual for her. She hates science, but loved the AP bio teacher. </p>
<p>In my English classes in college I always teach almost the opposite of what HS teachers have taught, whether it's AP or not. (Yeah, Com.Col. students have on occasion taken AP.) So, AP courses don't have anything to do with college in English. Math/science are probably different.</p>
<p>Got to go. I am watching Dr. Who. Teaching literature of time travel. Am working!</p>