<p>Ah, xiggi</p>
<p>I spent a lot of last year telling parents (including myself), if they don't want your kid, they do not deserve your kid. Move on!</p>
<p>bethievt,</p>
<p>When my son got his--thankfully--one and only rejection letter, signed by the well-known admissions dean, I jokingly suggested he put it somewhere safe so he could mail it back to her some day explaining why he was making a large alum. donation to <em>some other</em> school. That plan was ruined when she got fired--oops, make that resigned--a couple of weeks later. Curm's words say it all:</p>
<p>
[quote]
That part was fun for me. Not completely satisfying in the long run, ....and quite possibly childish to feel that way ........but fun nonetheless
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We parents do not take rejection well.</p>
<p>No, it's true. Thank goodness, our children usually do.</p>
<p>However, not always.</p>
<p>I remember reading an article my the eminent psychologist, Martin Seligman, discussing his rejection from Harvard. He was accepted by and attended Princeton. He said he only got over it when he turned down Harvard's offer of employment.</p>
<p>I say, that's the way it's done!</p>
<p>New York governor Elliot Spitzer is said to be still bummed that he got rejected by Harvard College. However, his grudge didn't stop him from attending Harvard Law School after he graduated from Princeton.</p>
<p>Well, I don't think Seligman turned down the job for revenge. I think he just didn't want it, but it gave him a soupcon of relief to be able to reject them.</p>
<p>Spitzer's solution is excellent, too, as is just not letting it bother us.</p>
<p>Details, perhaps my post wasn't clear, but it certainly made no inference about your husband's teaching ability. I don't know him from Adam. I'm still scratching my head over your view that taking courses that one is not thrilled about is "gross." Or why a kid who needs to take a physics course to graduate should avoid the AP level because someone might think he's a grade grubber. </p>
<p>But my last post was really pointing out the differences in the survey level foundation courses in humanities vs math or science. A kid studying physics has to cover a fairly rigid progression of topics if he has any hope of further study. There's a solid concensus about what is critical to cover. This lends itself to a uniform curriculum and the inflexible AP standards. A kid studying literature can dabble a bit in Gothic fiction, or jump around reading Elizabethan era writers while still growing as a writer & learning to analyze literature. There's really no firm concensus on what authors are essential. That leaves plenty of wiggle room. Naturally, no decent English teacher would be thrilled to have his course curriculum dictated by the College Board.</p>
<p>Case in point. D had a great AP Bio teacher. One problem. He didn't like plant bio and wouldn't teach it. At all. Can you say self-study? She still came out O.K..</p>
<p>Just caught up on the last page of this thread's posts and had to laugh. We visited S1 during his intersession break last week and we were joking about whether Harvard looks at its law school applicants from Yale and Princeton who got top grades and wonders why it rejected them four years prior. Obviously we know they don't and it's separate admission committees but it is somewhat amusing, at least now that he couldn't even imagine being so happy anywhere else.</p>
<p>StickerShock, I'm glad I came across your last couple of posts, because it may answer a question of mine. My son took AP Lang at public high #1, but my daughter is taking it at public high #2 next year. To my surprise, it has been bundled into a block course with AP US History, which means (I think) that the literature studied will be mostly American. That was not at all the case with my son's AP Lang course, so I was a bit mystified how the course material could be covered by concentrating only on writing that tied in with the US History course.</p>
<p>I gather what you are saying is that the techniques/skills can be obtained in a lot of different ways?</p>
<p>Hm. As a college teacher who has been invited to grade this exam and has friends who do, I can't say I think much of AP English. And the 5's are often much duller essays than the 4's.</p>
<p>Midmo, that's very interesting. The AP Language course is heavy on composition. Quite similar to the DBQ sections in the AP USH, perhaps -- here are your source materials, read 'em & tell us how they apply to the following premise.... It makes sense, but I'd never have thought to lump the two together. </p>
<p>As to mythmom's claim of dull essays: that's so subjective. The AP is graded on a rubric so as to avoid subjective grading if at all possible. It's not rocket science. Follow our guidelines, using proper syntax, appropriate vocabulary, and complete the task in the limited amount of time we give you. Do this & get a five. Even the most creative writer should be able to accomplish this, but it might mean reining in that creativity until the required elements are completed.</p>
<p>Having been to countless norming sessions about grading essays for AP as well as proficiency exams I can tell you it's not all that simple. That's why the AP is renormed every few hours and consensus often does privilege duller essays.</p>
<p>details, I just read through your account of your son's Wesleyan experience with more jaw-dropping than head-scratching. I certainly would have "pegged" him as a Wesleyan admit, ED especially. He'll thrive at Vassar, I'm sure, but it still stings, doesn't it? (I'm still fuming over the kindergarten birthday party that my son wasn't invited to. :) )</p>
<p>My son didn't take any math or science his senior year of high school. He actually liked math and science but there were so many other "areas of interest" that he preferred that math and science just got crowded out of his schedule. When he was admitted (ED) to Williams I assumed that it was the addition of the "other areas of interest" that trumped the lack of math/science, but after reading everyone else's opinion on the subject, I'm more conscious, in retrospect, that it was a highly risky approach. </p>
<p>So I guess the next question is what kind of risk is good risk? Colleges seem to admit a high percentage of interesting kids who do interesting things. Squeezing those passions into the spare time left over after 4 years of 6 academic subjects plus arts, sports and community service is enough to send Hercules back to bed.</p>
<p>
And don't ever let them see you sweat (or even work hard). It has to be seemingly effortless.
Such is the conundrum these schools put before these students. Well said, momrath.</p>
<p>momrath, I don't know your son's entire HS curriculum. However, not taking math or science in senior year (depending on what he had taken thus far) doesn't sound as risky to me as a student who took neither Biology or Chemistry in HS who was seeking admissions to a selective college. But in any case, they look at the entire profile and sometimes one thing that may raise a question is overcome by other factors that are very strong. So, I don't truly think when a kid doesn't get into an elite school like Wes, that the finger can be pointed to "one reason." As well, the kid could have stacked up perfectly and still not be admitted due to having too many who have what it takes to get in. So, as you know, as they build a class, they have to pick and choose, from many who make the grade. details' son sounds like he had what it took but his turn didn't come up at this school. It is not like a student is evaluated in isolation. They still have to create a group of freshmen. We haven't seen the entire pool of applicants. details' son likely was in consideration but when they created the final grouping, he didn't make the pile. It happens and there doesn't always have to be a "reason."</p>
<p>mythmom, I think your reaction to the formulaic nature of the essays for AP exams and standardized test exams is predictable for someone who teaches writing and who works as a creative writer. However, I think that misses the point of teaching high school students how to write essays that will serve them well in a variety of college courses, including history classes, economics classes, lab science courses that require extensive lab reports, and so on. When I taught an upperclass biochemistry lab course that got designated the department's "writing intensive course", I was not looking for creativity in the long, detailed lab reports. I needed organization, logical analysis and proper sentence structure.</p>
<p>However, I am not ready to throw in the towel and concede that all of the writing done for all AP Lang courses is boring, trite and according to formula. I read several of my son's papers (those that were published in a literary mag and one that was read for an audience) and they were pretty darn funny. Nothing formulaic about them. </p>
<p>Apologies for my contributions to taking this thread waaaaay off topic!</p>
<p>I think the point of my post got missed... or maybe I need to make it more clear.</p>
<p>In general, for elite, highly selective admissions, there is a standard array of courses that pretty much are assumed to equate with a comprehensive, college preparatory high school education. This generally includes 4 years of English, 3-4 years of a foreign language, courses in US History & American Government, 3-4 years of math at least through trig or pre-calc, & 3-4 years of lab sciences including chem, bio + physics. Since elite admissions is also highly competitive and the colleges want to see a rigorous curriculum, you build from there with additional electives & AP courses in areas of interest. You deviate from that basic menu at your peril. </p>
<p>My d. managed to get away with it and get selected to reach colleges because she targeted well, applying as a lopsided candidate to colleges that were likely to appreciate her areas of strength. Part of the research we did was to check the size of college departments and enrollment figures for her language -- I looked for colleges with several tenured faculty but unfilled classes in the department, figuring that she had to be "selling" something the colleges really wanted to get around the other weaknesses in her record. </p>
<p>I honestly don't think its a bad thing that colleges have those expectations. I think my d. thought she could get away with avoiding math in college, but her school has a lab science requirement, and she had a struggle doing problem sets for her science class last semester with her limited high school math. I think it's a fair assumption for the college to make that its students will have a certain background coming in. My d. is a smart kid, she can cope with the extra work engendered by her weaker level of preparation --- but the question about elite college admissions is never, "why did the college reject student X", but "why should the college accept student A over students B, C, & D." The problem with any sort of weakness in the academic record is there may be other students who have all the attributes of the applicant without the deficits... and it is reasonable to expect that in that case, the offer of admissions will go to them.</p>
<p>Actually, I wasn't speaking as a writer but as someone part of creating the norms you are talking about. But I don't want to argue this point. It is minor and I concede. Sorry if not more gracefully.</p>
<p>midmo: I am glad your son wrote funny essays. Kudos and I'm sure you enjoyed them. </p>
<p>momrath: I think that what your son did and what details' son did is great because both boys really pursued their hearts and both boys were admitted into wonderful schools. In fact, that is my argument -- that by following his heart's desire details' son will be at Vassar which is probably more in keeping with his value system than Wesleyan. And I think that happened with my son too, who wanted Williams for a year and half, had a momentary love affair with Dartmouth, didn't make it, and was sent back to Williams. I'm sure he is very pleased at the outcome because I don't think he really wanted the Frat culture at Dartmouth, but the HOP sure was beautiful on a summer evening in August.</p>
<p>As long as outcome is tied to fit and not "must have" school I think these outcomes are perfect.</p>
<p>DD reached a point where she said, "No, I don't want a tutor. I'm never going to get an A in Calculus or AP Bio." She did get B+'s. I said, "Well, you probably won't get into Brown." She said, "I'm okay with that." And she was. And maybe it's just rationalizing on her part, but she said she was happy she didn't get into Brown because she didn't know if she could turn it down for Barnard which she was convinced was a much better fit. (She liked the laid back open curriculum of Brown. Barnard's distribution requirements are a bear.)</p>
<p>When kids are themselves and they work hard and have a lot to show for themselves, the risks they take pair them with environments that share their values and value them. I think that's great.</p>
<p>This is a long thread, so if someone has already raised this possibility,
sorry . . .</p>
<p>but I think it's possible that the decision was just a mistake. And generally speaking, not even the Supreme Court is as committed to stare decisis (roughly, let the decision stand) as Admissions Committees have to be. So if it was a mistake, they might have a hard time undoing it, depending on local policies. And they also would not have any specifics to offer on the rejection. I realize it's not much consolation for the OP, but the outcome doesn't make sense to me (despite competitive year, great applicants, bla, bla, bla).</p>
<p>Another possibility is that the Admissions Committee member who read the file first thought, "Oh, no, another left-handed French horn player who is fluent in Portuguese and Hungarian, spends twenty hours a week working in soup kitchens, has 10 APs, top scores, and a great GPA. I'm tired of reading about people like this!" </p>
<p>By which, I really mean that there might have been some weird way that the application just didn't resonate with the reader, and that the flaw is in the reader, and not in the applicant.</p>
<p>Even with students, we sometimes wonder why some get rejected when others get in. Sometimes, you DON'T wonder. I think CC would not be around if there wasn't this mystery factor and the admissions process was 100% clear. </p>
<p>But, really, can you imagine if colleges upon rejection told you flat out why they rejected you? I think some things might be better left untold. </p>
<p>"We rejected you because your essay about working in the hospital didn't convey enough passion/empathy. Otherwise, we would have so admitted you."</p>