<p>My son LOVED every minute of his AP English course at his public HS. It was taught very creatively, with a lot of drama (literally) and the hours flew by. He said he learned so much about writing from this very demanding teacher that college work is much less difficult for him than for most students he knows. He is the "editor" and unpaid writing tutor for his floor now. And he got a 5 on the exam, writes amusingly and knows the proper place to throw down a semi-colon. Of course, he had some skills when he entered the class, but he gives his teacher major credit for shaping and sharpening those skills, as well as teaching him to think and write critically about literature. So it can be taught well within the confines of AP.</p>
<p>calmom, I don't think your d was rationalizing. I think she looked at her options, figured out the consequences, and made a choice.</p>
<p>In 10th grade, my d dropped down from honors math to standard. She didn't think she could keep up with honors math (obviously not a natural math person), and keep up with her 6 other honors courses. Her teachers agreed with her, and signed off on regular math. I told her that this might limit her choices of college. She looked at me and said, "Mom, any school that won't take me because I'm not as good at math as I am at other things isn't a school I would be comfortable at anyway." (She did end up taking regular calculus, and had the Holy Trinity of honors science and another one, but no AP science at all. Refused. Not a science kid either.)</p>
<p>Sometimes the kid is smarter than the mom.</p>
<p>This was very informative as to the workings of the Admissions Committee at UChicago. It's a great article (posted on CC on 11/24/04).</p>
<p>Chedva: And that is my point too. Your daughter and my daughter think alike. They want to be in an environment in which they can be themselves. And did it <em>their</em> way and achieved good results.</p>
<p>Ultimately, in our careers we do what we're good at. Thank goodness!</p>
<p>bethie: You S was very lucky. My S's teacher was so bad (taught the class at a seventh grade level) that the class always said, "Mythguy (his choice over mythson -- uses it himself now on IMDB chats) you should teach the class." He did win the school English award, but I think it was more for his analysis. Writing is still growing, and he might still need the help of bethie's son. Hm. Send him to Grinnell for a session?</p>
<p>FWIW, my D's AP courses have been absolutely wonderful. There's a faction at our hs who tries to get the school to do away with APs every now and then. If that ever happened, I'd send the younger D elsewhere without hesitation.</p>
<p>Ha,ha, mythmom. He's sure to get everything he needs and more at Williams.</p>
<p>Chedva: I find your story very interesting in the context of our NJ public high school....A number of kids this year have been told that they have been deferred/waitlisted/rejected because their "rigor of curriculum" was not there; they did exactly what your daughter did....Dropped down in math during junior (and then senior) year and never took an AP science.(only Honors)...I guess it just depends on how well the colleges examine the HS's they are admitting from......From here, it is obviously not a good idea....I'm glad it worked out for your d......(BTW, they did, however, max out in AP history courses and both AP english.).....</p>
<p>That was a good article, j'adoube.</p>
<p>My Vassar son who was also accepted at Wesleyan applied ED to Brown and was deferred then rejected. This came as no surprise to us, not because of his grades or outstanding ECs, rather because Brown has a well known grudge against our HS and had not accepted anyone in many years. The rumors fly about a student having backed out of ED years back, words with a guidance counselor ... no one in the community knows for sure.</p>
<p>My son's counselor was sure that my son would be the one to break the "Brown Curse." He wasn't. I am still irritated that Brown would not accept a student for no good reason (in my mind, anyway.) This is not just my son, but numerous other talented students throughout the years who were accepted to other fine schools such as Yale, Penn and others. </p>
<p>All has worked out for the best as Vassar was my son's clear second choice and he is thriving there. With professors and an advisor who generally email him back within the hour and are always willing to meet and go the extra yard, he is extremely happy. When he needs a recommendation, they are all willing to accommodate him instantly. This is a school who makes my kid feel like a million bucks. As a parent, I feel that he is getting an amazing, quality education. When he comes home on breaks and chats about classes and what he has learned, my husband and I joke afterward together about our "Vassar dollar at work." My son has grown leaps and bounds in every which way since he began. </p>
<p>Mythmom, he does make tremendous use of the magnificient library, as do most students. I still make a point of walking through there and the chapel each time I visit.</p>
<p>As for requirements, Details is largely correct about the three requirements. There is a little known fact that students must take a certain percentage of their classes outside of the discipline of their major. In other words, if you are a bio major, you cannot take all of your courses in the sciences. This is different than at Brown, where you would be able to take every single course in the biology department if you wished to do so. </p>
<p>My son took honors bio, honors chem and regular physics in HS. When choosing courses for his senior year, his GC insisted that he take a last year of science, which largely consisted of a choice between AP Physics, AP Bio or AP Chem. Given his druthers, he would not have picked another year of science, in fact, he was rather annoyed about it, as science is not at all his thing. He took AP Chem and got his lowest grade in his high school career. I can't tell you how suprised he was when he got a 4 on the AP and actually got credit for the course at Vassar! (He must have had a really good day.)</p>
<p>As for Wesleyan, my son never really had any interest. He read the Gatekeepers and applied for a variety of reasons. Had he not gotten into Vassar, he would have taken another hard look. I begged him to go to WesFest, the three days for admitted students and he refused to go. </p>
<p>When he posted, albeit briefly, on Vassar's admitted students forum, he descirbed himself as another happy Brown reject. I don't think he even remembers that Brown exists now.</p>
<p>Rodney,</p>
<p>One thing though... Chedva's daughter did take calculus senior year. Did those kids from your school do that or did they stop at precalc? Although I think schools like to see rigor across the board, I do think they can be forgiving in one area-- especially if the issue is the kid just isn't very good at it (Bs instead of As) but is competent. </p>
<p>(I've seen kids with all sorts of math levels go off to good unis-- calculus, precalc, advanced calc.)</p>
<p>rodney, that is interesting. I had not heard about rejection because of the "rigor" at our high school. What percentage of students from your children's hs continue on to 4 year colleges?</p>
<p>I know plenty of kids who stopped with precalc and got into very good schools from our high school. If one begins algebra I in 9th grade, one ends with precalc.</p>
<p>2collegewego: Yup, they took college prep calculus.....and this is not the 1st year this happened here.....even though we are very similar in our course curriculums to other HS, top 20 colleges seem to ignore the whole "context of your hs routine" .......On the other side of the "dropping down in math" thing, we have students who are not permitted into ANY AP science without an "A" in the honors course....Therefore, you cannot even take i.e. APPhysics or APChem ahead of taking the honors course; and add to that they only allow a small # of kids to double up.......these requirements are not even on our school profile......so much for in the "context of your HS"......That is why CC is so enlightening....</p>
<p>northeast: I think we are at 78% 4year schools; I'm not going to tell you our state rank b/c someone may figure out where I am, but suffice it to say, we are in the top 25 in NJ.....IMO, it is a poor job of public relations and marketing by our guidance department in terms of relationships with admissions officers......</p>
<p>My daughter also is not a science/math person and did not take AP Math or Science that are offered at our high school. Her SAT scores are also uneven, with the Verbal and Writing considerably higher than the Math. Our school weights for AP (5 for an A) and Honors (4.5 for an A), and she ended up graduated 11th of over 750 in the class, even though some classmates had more AP classes than her. She took Honors math through Calculus (not AP) and took Honors Bio/Chem/Physics in grades 9-11. Even though she had no interest in Math, she correctly felt it was important to have the fourth year of math (Honors Calculus). Instead of AP Bio as a senior, she took AP Psychology (an easier course) and did an independent study of interest to her, AP Art History (under the guidance of a teacher, not part of her official transcript or at all recognized by the high school). She also took the AP English and Social Studies courses that are offered at our school (two AP English courses, AP USH, Euro, and American Govt.) She was admitted to an excellent LAC (ranked ~ #30) and, to our surprise, was awarded a substantial merit scholarship, even though she applied ED and was bound to go there. For reasons not relevant to the current topic, she was not happy at her first school and was admitted to Swarthmore as a sophomore transfer. Her areas of study are somewhat unusual and not at all related math and science. So, in the end, her relative weakness in math and science did not hurt her. However, we still don't know if she would have been admitted to Swarthmore as a high school senior - I think she likely would not have been - I think Swarthmore overlooked her relatively low math SAT and lack of "rigor" in high school science and math because she excelled as a freshman at her first college in her areas of academic interest.</p>
<p>That might make a difference. Our hs's profile states that ninety someodd % go to 4 year colleges (don't remember exactly, but it could be as high as 98%). We have the similar AP and honor rules as your high school does, but our hs also creates exceptions. They never want to be held to anything all of the time. This is a rule that is often broken by the most vocal students/parents, which is wrong, IMO. Either it should be a rule for all, or not a rule. Anyway the loophole is that a teacher may subjectively recommend a student for an honor's or AP class and it happens. Also, a student may get in through begging, explaining, and pleading his/her case. It happens.</p>
<p>Our high school is an average suburban high school. Only about 50% go to four year college and about 25% to two year college. We usually have about 2 to 5 National Merit Scholars each year out of over 750 graduating. We do have a small group of top kids from our high school admitted to very selective colleges each year, although many of the top kids apply and are admitted to our state university and to not apply to other schools.</p>
<p>Traditional at our HS for elite college bound kids is two AP sciences. They double up junior year and take two sciences. DS did this; DD did not. He was admitted to amazing schools, including Brown (chose LAC, imagine that) perhaps because of it? I don't know. He did enjoy it and got on 5 and one 4. And they all have AP Calc. They also all take AP Language. In fact the range for AP's is nine to eleven. DS had ten. Eleven came from kids who have two AP languages, also common.</p>
<p>Missing from action: AP econ, AP Psyche, AP Music Theory, AP Art or they would have even more.</p>
<p>DS had two AP Latin classes, Lit and Virgil.</p>
<p>I am not bragging because he was far from unique. Most of his friends did the same.</p>
<p>Our high school's profile is also about 98% to 4 year schools. It also sends kids to virtually every Ivy (except Brown - somehow Brown doesn't like us!) every year; the top 10% of the class (unweighted; specific ranking isn't done; only deciles reported) go to the top colleges and universities. </p>
<p>The school doesn't require kids to have taken the honors science course before taking the AP course, but very few kids are brave enough to try AP without it. And very few teachers will sign off on such a plan.</p>
<p>We don't even have honors science -- our school is too small. (85 graduating class.) The kids go from regular science into AP.</p>
<p>They are not allowed to take AP without preliminary course. So that means DS took six lab sciences in HS; DD five, but she was in a women in science program sponsored by Stony Brook. She graduated as a member of the National Science Honor Society (a joke, truly in her case), but she did do the work, and even though she would say she hates science, the fact that she made an integrated board, sequenced her DNA, used micro pipettes still features prominently in her discussion. So doing things for college resume can have salutary and unexpected results.</p>
<p>It is amazing how different high schools are in their offerings. Our high school offers no AP languages, the only languages taught are French and Spanish and the fifth year is far below the AP level. (My daughter would have loved to take Latin and we even investigated the possibility of a summer course somewhere, but it did not work out.) The AP courses offered are for the most part very good, but AP Chem is not offered and the highest Math is Calc AB, which is taken only by about 25 seniors chosen as top math students in a special track in 10th grade. (I realize many schools in the US offer much less than this, but it is very different from what Mythmom and others describe). In spite of this, my son was admitted to MIT, Stanford, and other top schools as a prospective computer science major, and he did not take any courses, such as higher level math, at colleges for credit during high school. He had very high scores and other things going for him, and I guess he was evaluated in the context of his school's offerings.</p>