<p>We made a visit to Brown as part of my D's college tour before Brown adopted a need-blind admission policy. We were told outright that they treat "financial aid need" as an integral part of the student's application for admission. They did not dodge the question.</p>
<p>details, I am sorry about your son's experience with Wesleyan... but I think that also illustrates where lack of an in-depth understanding of the admissions process might lead to seemingly inexplicable results. You actually were fortunate in that you were given a straightforward answer. If a parent in your situation came to me for advice, I would have known that a kid can't apply to a highly selective school like Wesleyan as a prospective math or science major without the holy trinity of sciences (bio+chem+physics) plus calc. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I am the parent of a daughter who never went beyond algebra II and only had 2 years of lab sciences in high school, who got into extremely selective colleges.... but we knew to emphasize an academic interest that coincided with a particularly strong high school record. (In her case it was foreign language study combined with time spent living abroad). But, quite frankly, she consciously structured her apps to play up that criteria and focus on her intent to continue her language studies in college, even though she really did not expect to major in the language. I mean, at the time, she was unsure of major and could truthfully have said that she was interested in studying psychology (one of several areas of interest).... but we knew very well that to apply as a prospective psych major would have been disastrous. (Psych departments in all colleges on her list are oversubscribed, and the weak math preparation & test scores would probably have been a huge barrier in that context). </p>
<p>This concept of having a strong, complementary high school record is something that was emphasized in a college application workshop I attended --- to the extent that I think my d's college application strategy was built largely around it. A GC can "explain" a weakness but only if the weakness is something the college is willing to overlook -- and a kid with your son's profile might have won admission if he emphasized his interest in pursuing music or the study of classics (given the AP Latin course) - rather than making the mistake of claiming "math" without a mathy-profile. </p>
<p>I'm not sure it matters, because the fact that Wesleyan doesn't want prospective math majors who don't have bio+physics means there wasn't a good fit in any case. From the ad com's point of view, they are looking at fulfilling the school's desire to have math majors fit a certain mold in terms of level of preparation. To this day I am not sure whether my daughter was waitlisted at Boston U because of finances or her failure to meet their stated requirement of high school math through pre-calc, or both.... but the point is she was waitlisted at the supposed "match" while accepted at far more selective reaches. </p>
<p>I think when finances are an issue, then you have to be able to play the admissions game very artfully, knowing how to play up the applicant's attributes in a way that will make them into a hook, especially in the context of need-aware schools. You can't go into it expecting the college ad coms will make exceptions or be flexible for kids who are going to need a substantial financial boost along the way. Why should they? In a sense, we financial aid applicants are asking the college to pay our kids to attend -- and when it gets to that point, our kids have got to have something to offer the college in exchange-- i.e., to be able to articulate what they have that makes them a more worthwhile admit than the hypothetical full-pay kid whose space they are taking.</p>
<p>It surprises me that a college would imply that they hold a kid to a preference stated in the senior year of high school (math major), since they have close to three years - with a lot of classes and experiences during that time - in which to declare a major. I would find the admission's office response more believeable if they said the student hadn't exhibited a strong passion for one thing. Even then, with an alum parent and all the right numbers, it just goes to show how quirky admissions can be. </p>
<p>I'm not surprised admissions decisions are guarded like state secrets for two reasons - to ensure openness amongst the staff during discussions and to preempt law suits based on perceived discrimination.</p>
<p>Calmom, I can tell you that a friend of mine has a son who was rejected from Boston U. He definitely had the grades and SAT scores for admission, and he is a legacy. The reason he was denied admission is because he is an atypical student and there was no flexibility. He lived in the US until 4th grade. He left the US and moved to another country. He returned to the US for 12th grade. He is a US citizen. The problem was with foreign language. He is completely bilingual, but Boston U.'s admissions said that he was missing his foreign language requirement. The parent explained that English is his foreign language, but it did not help. He also told his mother that if Boston U. had changed their admission decision he still would not attend. He attends another school who accepted him with a merit scholarship, and he is doing very well (a state flagship school). BTW, finances did not enter the picture as far as BU's decision in this case. They would have been a "full pay" family.</p>
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dntw - go back to the OP - she said the application asked if her d was applying for financial aide and if other children were in college - this was EA or ED - and the financial aide form was not done yet.
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JustaMom, this is not usually true. If you apply to schools EA/ED, you have an earlier deadline for the CSS Profile or other school-specific forms, with estimated numbers, and you usually also send the prior years' income taxes. The only thing you can't file prior to EA/ED decisions is the FAFSA. In fact, all the kids I know who were accepted EA/ED also got tentative financial aid packages with their acceptances or shortly thereafter. (This is particularly true for ED schools, since one way to get out of an ED agreement is to show that the financial aid is insufficient; students must have an estimated package before they withdraw their other applications.)</p>
<p>So the school had plenty of information on which to base a "need-aware" decision.</p>
<p>Chedva, My son applied to a few schools EA. He did not get a tentative financial aid package from anyone until after April 1. We filled out the fafsa on 1/1, and filled out the profile where applicable in a timely fashion.</p>
<p>Response to Calmom
The frustration lies in the fact that he DID have a "mathy Profile"!
A's in the following:
algebra 2, geometry, Honors pre calc, AB calc in summer session at Connecticut College ( where he als received an A , and did better than a guy who was going to be teaching calc at the high school in the next town) and is taking AP bc calc this year as a senior!
Still not "mathy enough"? One of his letters of recommendation was from his former math techer who compared him to Decartes in her rec.
More? He developed a theorem & proved it sent in the proof w/ his app)
Capatain of his school's team for Yale Physics Olympics ....... yada yada yada. I understand if you wanted to be a bio or chem major, that a lack of math would be odd, but conversly? Also, if they require the "holy trinity" of bio, chem & Physics, (he has both honors & AP physics btw), they should say there requirements are simply 2 lab sciences (which he more than covered). Say what you mean! In a school that claims to "honor the individual" and all that happy (I was there alot with my husband when he attended), I'm not sure that mean what they say. His lifelong commitment to animal rights should have easily "excused" the bio thing if they really felt this way. I don't think they looked at the letter of rec from his GC (which addressed the issue) at the same time they looked as his transcript. Whatever... it's their loss. just irritating.</p>
<p>Details-- in connection to what Calmom said, my first reaction when reading your post was that, when we were dealing with Wesleyan admissions, they said they expected that just about all students would have, at the least, three years of HS science including bio, chem, and phys. This was regardless of major, so I'm not sure why your S's major was invoked. It does seem, though, that your S's overall profile did not match what they seek.</p>
<p>As far as not taking chem because of conflicts, my understanding from years of reading CC and other college information, that this doesn't usually fly; they expect students to make it work in some fashion (or at least they take the ones who do.) As far as the vegetarian/biology issue, I think that would resonate least at a place like Wes, where such a high percentage of students are vegetarian, and presumably found a way to take bio w/o compromising their principles. </p>
<p>As an aside, my H is a bio teacher in HS, and cannot require a student to do dissection. I thought this was the norm in most places, though i haven't researched this.</p>
<p>The Wesleyan thing is upsetting, because as I remember details' posts her son DID take science courses (just not bio and chem), and the counselor's letter addressed why those courses were not taken. There is an implication that they did not actually read (or actually think about) the counselor's letter. I could understand that if it was UC, processing 50,000 applications per campus, but Wesleyan, which gets closer to 10,000, really ought to to a better job.</p>
<p>The other thing is that I don't understand why a prospective math major has to be interested in high school biology. Most of the math kids I know are actually a lot more interested in economics than in any hard sciences, and if they do have a science interest it tends to be physics. It's tough to believe that Wesleyan considers not taking biology as showing a lack of interest in math. (I took biology, and liked it, and I completely lacked interest in math.)</p>
<p>Wes is just plain hard to get into now. We visited 2 years ago and met with a first year who had graduated from my son's HS. She had barely made it off the wait list and she was a tip-top student in every way conceivable. It's a very good school, but no better than scads of others, imo. Just being qualified isn't enough to get you in.</p>
<p>And, details, I think you're being harsh with calmom. I don't read it that she encouraged deception, but a framing of her daughter's assets in as attractive a way as possible.</p>
<p>Details, Wesleyan has a stated preference for kids who take Bio/Chem/Physics. It’s a big deal to them. It is the only school I can recall that lists that specifically on its class profile. Still, not every kid has taken all 3-- but your son hadn't taken 2 of the 3. It sounds to me like maybe they were honest. I <em>think</em> it's a bigger deal to them than to most schools.</p>
<p>And to the person who said there is a limit on the amount of loans a student can take: those are only <em>federal</em> loans. Some schools have institutional loans that they will give the students even after federal loans have been maxxed out. </p>
<p>JustaMomof4, about gapping… some (private) schools promise to meet all need. Those schools won’t gap the students but they tend to take need into account. In my experience, state schools are less likely to take need into account but are more likely to gap.</p>
<p>My mathy kid didn't like Bio, but he still manage to fit in AP bio, AP physics and AP chem. (He too regular chem one summer in order to do it.) There are now computer programs that kids can substitute for real dissections. I think the admission's committee read the GC's letter and felt it wasn't a good enough excuse. It happens.</p>
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<p>Hey. Details. Point out where calmom said what you claim. Get your "details" straight .
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<p>It appears to me you are just dogging her for this :
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<p>There may be things to criticize, but the one you picked is bogus. She never used those words that you "quoted". She wrote precisely. You should have read it that way but instead you responded while angry and feeling slighted. We've all done it at some time. Calm down, and try again.</p>
<p>garland-
No where does wesleyan state that they require any specific sciences, only that they require 2 lab sciences (my son had 3 or 4). He took" life sciences"
required of freshmen at his prep school. There was disection in that class so my son did some lengthy research to use a CD virtual dissection program which his teacher (head of the science dept) accepted grudgingly.
Since students there are not required to take bio, the ones that do are expected to do full disections (no computor model substitutuions). The rules regarding this are probably different for your husband if he teaches at a public school. Wesleyan states that they are looking for students who pursue a passion by taking the highest level of subject in their feild of interest ( in my son's case Latin I, II, III, honors IV & AP Vergil as well as all the aforementioned math concluding with AP bc calc (& stats this year I forgot to mention earlier) He had no interest in Math til his junior year, when some sort of lightbulb went on in this area. Since then he has obviously pursued that passionas well. Everyone that knows him thought that he & wesleyan were made for each other- teachers, college councelors, friends etc- that's why everyone was so floored by the rejection. I don't think GC's routinely call to ask why a kid was not admitted, but she did in this case because it seemed to be so weird.</p>
<p>Timed out on my edits. </p>
<p>I would have commented on the "honesty" part of detail's post but I think the mods will do that for me. ;)</p>
<p>details, get over the anger at Wesleyan. I've had to do it with Duke and D (and their waitlist of D). Can't say it has been easy or the process complete. I did take some pleasure at the time when D immediately decided "If they don't want me, I don't want them. Take me off the list." That part was fun for me. Not completely satisfying in the long run, ....and quite possibly childish to feel that way ;)........but fun nonetheless.</p>
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The other thing is that I don't understand why a prospective math major has to be interested in high school biology.
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<p>I don't really thinks it matters whether or not a prospective math major is "interested" in biology. No person can claim to be well-educated with zero exposure to modern biology. Cloning, DNA finger-printing, evolution vs creationism, stem cell research, and about a hundred other subjects that contribute to understanding the modern world are covered in high school biology today. I think it is perfectly acceptable for a selective liberal arts college to expect every applicant to have covered the basics in science courses while in high school. </p>
<p>Heck, my son had, and has, zero use for literary analysis, but took AP Lang and AP Lit anyway. You won't catch this computer science/math major in any optional literature classes in college, but at least he came out of high school with the bases covered.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon
not sure how to post the quote thing- but if you look at your quote just before you placed "focus her intent.." in bold, she states "she consciously structured her apps to play up that criteria"(re: language) follwed by (right after your quote in bold) even though she really did not expect to major in the language"
I wasn't picking on calmon, I just think it sucks that the app process drives people in general to play games. you'd think honesty would be valued with them (colleges). you eventually have to do this crap when applying for an actual job. It would be nice to think that higher education is that last place you can be real. I guess i'm naive.</p>
<p>Details, they may say they require 2 years of lab science <em>however</em> they <em>want</em> 3 years with one year of bio, one of chem and one of physics. Schools will often list their minimums-- but if you read some of the amazing stats on cc, you'll see that today, successful applicants exceed those minimums.</p>
<p>Frankly, I think Wes is pretty straight forward about the bio/ chem and physics thing. It's the only school I know of that lists % of admits with it. (I think it's between 75%-80%.) So I always guess that the other 20% is <em>exceptional</em> and maybe doesn't fall far short-- in other words, someone with your son's Latin accomplishments claiming a classics major with at least 1of the 2 sciences (especially because he's a legacy). But, you know what? Schools are NOT consistent. Schools are NOT 'fair.' There isn't enough room to be fair. And, frankly, sometimes they're not right-- and it stinks. I'm sorry your son didn't get in. Calmom's daughter did get in at one exceptional college-- but she wasn't admitted to others, probably because of her perceived weaknesses. It reminds me of when I was a very young mom and my dd was a little girl and took an IQ test. I was told at a 'class' that any difference of 10% could indicate a learning disability. A few days later, I called my best friend's mom, a school psychologist, and asked about my daughter who had 1 or 2 spatial scores around 90%. (Everything else was 99%.) She laughed and said, "They don't mean <em>those</em> scores. Noone can be outstanding at EVERYTHING." Noone is. We all have weaknesses. If one adcom decides to focus on that, the kid might be sunk. Hopefully, at another school, an adcom will focus on our kids' strengths. (Feel free to remind me of this in April, ok?) But, to be fair, not having bio or chem is a weakness because those courses are part of the normal college prep secondary school sequence.</p>
<p>I agree with Garland and Calmom about the science courses. As garland points out, Wesleyan likely wants to see Bio and Chem and Physics taken NO MATTER THE INTENDED MAJOR. I don't think this had to do with the fact that this boy wanted to major in math. My kid is majoring in musical theater and hates science and will never ever be taking a science class in college but indeed she surely took Bio and Chem in HS to have not only a demanding curriculum, but to meet the expectations of most selective colleges. While it is true that they may just say "lab sciences", I think most want to see at least Bio and Chem taken in HS. I think before a GC were to advise a student to omit Bio or Chem from their schedules and take something else, they should check with colleges to find out if these particular courses would be expected to be taken. The fact that the GC had to write an "excuse" why these weren't taken, implies that it was unusual and not the norm for an applicant to an elite school to not have Bio or Chem. I think the vegetarian thing might not fly as countless kids I know are vegetarians and still take Bio. There may be a way to be exempt from dissections. As far as a schedule conflict, my D had a conflict with the only class offered in Calculus in junior year conflicting with the integrated History/English class she needed to take. Here, juniors do not typically take Calculus and so she was the only one with this conflict as they schedule it so Calculus doesn't conflict with core classes the seniors have to take. But that didn't mean she didn't take Calculus. She had to line up a supervised independent study in Calculus. </p>
<p>I agree that the student did take challenging math and physics and while it may feel logical that that should be sufficient since he wants to major in math, I don't think it works that way. Elite colleges expect a certain basic high school curriculum regardless of intended major. HS is not meant to just take what you are interested in or what may relate to your intended college major. There is a set core of classes that a very selective college will expect to be taken of a student in HS. It is my belief that this core includes at least Bio and Chem. An elite school likely will also expect Physics. I understand that other science classes were taken and that it seems logical to be OK, but many colleges expect to see certain basic HS classes taken and a GC should see to it that these are taken at a minimum. Obviously the GC thought it needed explaining, so you might want to think of why this needed explaining....because it was not in line with the expectations of an applicant to a school like Wesleyan. That was a risk that was taken.</p>
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Here's what wes says page one. Can a broad based acdemic program omit chem and bio completely?</p>