Seeking Thoughts on Older Students Going to Conservatory

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hi, all. I'm an undergrad (not currently a music major), but I've been playing a stringed instrument since I was eight.</p>

<p>Here's a hypothetical I've been wondering about. </p>

<p>If I continue to play and attain the ability needed to go to a conservatory-level institution (I don't think this is impossible), what are your thoughts on doing so after a few years of work experience in a non-music field (say, to save up money needed to attend)? </p>

<p>In other words, is a late 20s music student (bachelor's degree or equivalent) a possibility or is this a completely absurd idea and I should just accept being an amateur for life?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

2

<p>There’s not enough detail to label the idea as absurd.</p>

<p>It’s possible, potentially probable, but it will depend on you current skills. You don’t say what level you are at now, what instrument, your experiences, intensity of training. Playing since you were eight may encompass a broad spectrum. Have you had experience with summer immersion programs and the level of intensity and dedication to prep for a solid MM program? Do you have the ability to assess your skill set against an extremely talented international applicant pool? Have you had professional level assessment confirming your abilities (and potential)? </p>

<p>You would have to continue to practice, take serious private instruction with an instructor familiar with and that has placed students in MM programs throughout your undergrad years. Ensemble play and a summer program or two won’t hurt. </p>

<p>Might I ask your purpose in seeking an MM? Are you looking at this as a potential career, or do you wish to achieve a higher level on your instrument?</p>

3

<p>Some conservatories have an explicit policy of not accepting students past a certain age (generally they want you to finish by your mid 20’s) for an undergrad degree. Others do not have a firmly stated policy but will normally give preference to students who they feel will most benefit from being there. For them to admit you in your late twenties, I think you will have to convince them that you are quite serious about your intentions and that you have not developed a lot of bad playing habits that they would have to address. Even then, if they are getting applications from more eager and talented teenagers than they can take, it could be tough going.</p>

<p>I think your best bet would be to make a call later this year, after the busiest part of the admission cycle is over, to the admissions offices of several schools that may eventually interest you. Ask them point blank if they have ever admitted anyone in their late twenties to an undergrad performance major.</p>

<p>What are your goals regarding grad school and beyond? Might your time be better spent with a very good private teacher?</p>

4

<p>Currently, I play viola with a local amateur or “community” symphony orchestra and I’m taking private lessons. </p>

<p>I’d look at education as preparation for a career. I know that it’s extremely competitive, but I’d rather earn a little money doing something I love rather than earning more money for doing something I don’t really enjoy. </p>

<p>Do you think it would be possible to do a bachelor’s degree in the mid-to-late 20s in music or would I have to go through a master’s degree program?</p>

5

<p>BassDad’s advice is always sound.</p>

<p>If you haven’t already done so, I suggest you read these
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>These are a couple of “how hard”/“do I have what it takes” type threads
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/790165-making-into-conservatory.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/790165-making-into-conservatory.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/789635-music-college.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/789635-music-college.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>These will give you an idea of the typical path and experiences of a good deal of the applicants here:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/458455-how-determine-your-childs-ability.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/458455-how-determine-your-childs-ability.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/531161-do-you-have-map.html?highlight=precollege[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/531161-do-you-have-map.html?highlight=precollege&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/674345-cello-player-what-do.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/674345-cello-player-what-do.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>A masters will require an advanced knowledge of theory, and normally at the very least a BM or BA in music, although some will consider a four year degree and equivalent musical training but may require additional undergrad level cousework. And then there’s the auditon.</p>

<p>You’re currently pursuing a bachelors, and funding for a second bachelors is typically out of pocket, or thru private loans, federal funds (Staffords, Perkins, Pell. other income related grants) are available for a second bachelor’s. Many publics will not accept candidates for a second bachelor’s.</p>

<p>If your goal is an orchestra chair that will pay a living wage, it will prove extremely competitive and probably elusive. Don’t let anyone tell you it will be easier on viola than violin. If you’d be happy playing in a regional or three, freelancing, maintaining a private studio and teaching, you might get by. </p>

<p>But don’t go down the path until you’ve read all you can, talk to folks here, professionals, grad students, and those with a couple of dozen auditions under their belts.</p>

6

<p>I’ve been lurking for quite a while this year (thanks for all the help btw), but this thread made me decide to stop lurking for a bit because I’m in a very similar situation. </p>

<p>I’m 30 years old now, I also play the viola, and will soon be making audition rounds for MM at a few places. My long-term goals are just what Violadad has mentioned – play in a regional or three, freelance, teach. Make enough to get by and support myself.</p>

<p>I have a BA with a majors in music and mathematical economics. I have waited so long to get back into school because I had to – I took an undergraduate scholarship that requires 8 years of… indentured servitude, if you like. If not I have to pay back the money I received, and I couldn’t. This September I finish the obligation and can finally leave.</p>

<p>This has been the most nerve-wracking year so far… mainly because now I get to find out whether all the plans I have made over the years are going to work out. Will I get into a program with enough financial aid to make it through? And then will I be able to make a living or maybe get into a DMA program so that I have enough time to continue working on the viola for a while?</p>

<p>I have to say, taking this road is difficult. For one thing, very few people at this age are still trying to study music performance. I explored going to Germany (because the fees are non-existent or negligible), and found the Germans in general very resistant to the idea of people embarking on a music career later in their lives. If you were trying to do this, perhaps the US is already the best place on the planet.</p>

<p>So far, of the better known music schools, I can say that Peabody’s director of admissions has been very very positive on the age issue. I have also gotten very nice emails from the viola prof at Umich, which seems to indicate that he does not mind. So I’m hoping that at the end of the day I will have somewhere to go and practice hard for the next 2 years, although with a few auditions to come I am still nowhere close to knowing where I will wind up eventually.</p>

<p>But I will say this – if you are intending to work in another field, choose it carefully, and use your spare time very well. I managed to find myself a department where I can have not too much stress and reliably leave on time everyday, even though the work is not exactly very interesting. But it has been important so that I can maintain a regular practice schedule, usually 8pm to 11pm every weekday. I have soundproofed my windows to avoid complaints from neighbours. And perhaps most importantly, find yourself a good teacher that has been teaching students who aim to be professional musicians. I consider myself very very lucky – about a year ago I got referred, quite by chance, to a teacher who was simply much more effective for me than the 2 before her. If I hadn’t gotten her help when I did, I don’t know if my playing would be anywhere close to the level required now. But I have managed to improve my playing even while working full-time. Be prepared to be very tired all the time, though. I have also found it helpful to clock the numbers of practice hours in a year and to set targets for yourself, for e.g. at least 15h a week no matter what else you have on.</p>

<p>I do have many days on which I wonder if it’s all worth it, and if I will make it in the end. I have met my share of doubters along the way, and many people will think you foolish. But I guess you can only carry on and find out if you can make it work, or else give it up and do something else easier (and there are really many other roads in life that are much easier). I’m not at the point yet where I am ready to give up, though I do not rule it out that that point may arrive sometime in the future.</p>

<p>So, I guess my point is, I don’t think it’s impossible, but it will definitely be tough. Get yourself a very good teacher as soon as possible, and work hard at playing well.</p>

7

<p>bratsche,
I’m impressed!!! Good luck to you! Your story is inspiring. Amen to pursuing what you love.</p>

<p>And good luck to you as well, missedit. All the best.</p>

8

<p>missedit, I know you play viola, not violin, but there have been many threads about late starters wanting to become professionals on Violinist.com, and although there is often controversy, the general tone is supportive. Violists do post on that site with some regularity. There is also a listserv called The Viola List that might be useful if you don’t already belong to it. </p>

<p>There is also a young woman named Jasmine Reese who has started a website and magazine called [Late</a> Starter Musician](<a href=“http://www.latestartermusician.com/]Late”>http://www.latestartermusician.com/) (you can also find her on Facebook. Another very supportive arena. I know this is anecdotal, but I know a number of professional musicians who either started late in general (strings as late as 14) or because serious later in life and who have been able to make careers for themselves in music education. Good luck with your quest!</p>

9

<p>I just realized that I’m not supposed to post links to outside site. Sorry about that! It seems too late to edit or delete my post.</p>

10

<p>glassharmonica, if you read CC’s TOS, it’s prohibited to post links to personal pages, youtube, competing forums, etc.</p>

<p>I’m not a moderator, but at face value the site doesn’t appear to violate anything. It may be “gray”, it may not.</p>

<p>If you hit the “report problem post button”, you can send a message to the mods asking them to evaluate the site. If it’s inappropriate they’ll pull it.</p>

<p>If they do, you can describe how to get there. A simple google “site description” will work, and doesn’t violate TOS.</p>

<p>We’re pretty much self policing as a group, so unless you or someone else reports it, there will probably not be an issue.</p>

11

<p>Hi Violadad, the sites I mentioned are not commercial or competing with CC in any way; in fact, there is very little info about college auditions on the violinist site, which is what brought me to cc in the first place, so I think it will be okay to leave it, as I hope what I posted will be useful to missedit . In the future, though I will not post any actual web addresses from outside sites. Thanks for your help and input. :)</p>

12

<p>Bratsche: I think that Canada may be an even more open place than the US for older musicians to pursue degrees. </p>

<p>For starters, none of our schools prevents students from pursuing a second bachelor’s degree or third or fourth. For example, most Canadian lawyer’s get their LLB (Bachelor of Laws) after bachelor’s degree in another field. Many teachers in Canada have both a Bachelor of Arts or Science in addition to a Bachelor of Education. In my province, the norm for teachers is now to get a Bachelor of Arts or Science first. Graduate degrees in Canada, as in Britain, are largely reserved for people pursuing intensive and serious research, unlike in the US where most of the graduate degrees awarded have little or no original research involved. Things are evolving in Canada towards more of an American model in terms of masters-light and doctorate-light, but a second or third bachelors is not unusual. </p>

<p>Secondly, Canada generally has a larger mature student population in its universities. I think that a 28-year-old might feel very out of place in many American bachelor’s programs. In Canada, some bachelor’s programs have almost no one under 22 or 23. Because there is no norm of going straight on to college from high school here, the term “gap year” is not in general use in Canada. Many students take two or three “gap years.” Many Canadian students who have attended college in the US and Canada report that the American colleges feel much more like high school (that is not a pejorative comment: Canadian universities tend to be very impersonal and spiritless whereas many American colleges have the same cohesion, community and energy that good high schools have). At least part of the reason that the Canadian universities do not feel like high school is the age-level of the students.</p>

<p>Thirdly, given Canada’s left-wing politics, Canadian society as a whole just does not generally accept discrimination on the basis of age. It would not be legal or considered ethically appropriate in Canadian academia to use a person’s age as a basis for denying them admission to an educational program. Canadians cannot understand the term “need-blind admission” because we can’t conceive of any alternative to need-blind admission. Canadians that I talk to are morally repulsed at the thought that a college would consider a person’s wealth as a factor in admission (just for the record, I am not personally making any moral judgements on discrimination on the basis of age or wealth: I recognize that different cultures, traditions, institutions, and climates exist). While I wouldn’t say they are similarly morally repulsed at the thought of using a person’s age as a basis for discrimination in college admissions, I do think that the climate here is more accepting of old students.</p>

<p>If you live in a northern state, your state may have a reciprocal agreement with one or more nearby Canadian provinces that allows you to attend Canadian universities in those provinces for the same tuition as Canadians pay, which for music degrees is usually between $5000 and $7000 per year even for universities with the status and quality of McGill (which I believe is even less than that for in-province students). </p>

<p>Many of the musicians that I know who have obtained Master’s degrees in music in Canada have been over 25 when they have started them, and some have been over 30. </p>

<p>Please do not misinterpret this post as saying that everything is better in Canada. All I am saying is that there is probably a more open environment here for older students to pursue post-secondary education in music. I still believe that the US has one of the best post-secondary educational systems in the world.</p>

13

<p>Sigh, I knew I should have posted about my situation earlier. I have thought a great deal about going to Canada, actually, especially to McGill, where I hear Andre Roy is a very good teacher. Or to the Royal Conservatory where Steven Dann is teaching. But it came down to a couple of considerations – timeframe for visits and how much repertoire I could prepare confidently enough to record for DVD.</p>

<p>But hey all this is good to know, maybe for a next stop or if somehow none of my options work out this year…</p>

14

<p>Bratsche: Roy and Dann are both reputed to be very good. I spoke with a friend yesterday whose son is auditioning for Roy next month, and she says he is very approachable. I would try emailing or calling him and explaining your situation. Every teacher is different and he might be hesitant about older students. While McGill’s application date has passed (Jan. 15, I believe), sometimes schools are flexible, particularly with respect to music. It never hurts to ask. McGill doesn’t require a prescreen for strings.</p>

<p>At Glenn Gould (where Dann is) the second round of applications has not yet started (it begins Feb. 1) and I believe that the auditions for the second round are usually around April. The Glenn Gould School is much smaller than the Schulich at McGill, so I believe that it is much more selective than McGill. The students that I have heard from GG are outstanding. McGill certainly has many outstanding students, but it also has some that are just very good.</p>

15

<p>Hi violindad, thanks so much for all the advice. It always helps to hear from someone who is more familiar with the situation.</p>

<p>I just wanted to ask if there were any other viola teachers in Canada that you would especially recommend?</p>

<p>I did not say this before, but I am actually not from the US, although I did my undergraduate studies in Rhode Island and attended the Aspen Festival for a year, which is why I am fairly familiar with the system and teachers. I’m from Singapore and I have been living here since graduation in 2002. Unfortunately there is no way I can spend more than a couple of weeks away from work altogether and so all the auditions I can take in person have to fit within a 2-week or so period, including travel time. I wound up ruling out a number of schools simply because of this, including GGS and Schulich. At the same time their audition repertoire was sufficiently different from those of the other schools that I would have had to learn and record additional material just for them. Given my situation I felt it would really be better to focus on fewer pieces of music and play them well.</p>

<p>However, I am not rulling out going on to a D.Mus, especially after a couple of years hopefully in an MM program where I can put in much more work on repertoire, so any information or further suggestions would be very much appreciated.</p>

<p>MissEdit – so sorry if I have semi-hijacked your thread, but I think much of this should be helpful for you as well.</p>