<p>I'm wrestling with the choices my daughter and her guidance counselor have made for her upcoming senior year. AP Euro, AP Eng., AP Span. are set in stone, as is chamber choir and acting workshop. As always in our weak math/science family, the issues arise in those areas. (You math and science people just look away, because none of this will resonate with you at all!)</p>
<p>Right now her schedule calls for non-honors calculus. She had a very hard time with non-honors pre-calc, getting a crummy grade that dragged down her GPA a bit. I don't expect anything better in calculus, since she's not willing to put in the exceptional effort that would be necessary, and it might be worse, since her pre-calc grounding seems pretty shaky (never took calculus myself, so I have no idea to what extent calc actually builds on pre-calc). But her counselor thinks it will look bad to admissions officers if she doesn't have a math class senior year. I'm not sure it's meaningful or impressive to challenge oneself with little chance of success and the potential to further injure the GPA. Any thoughts on this?</p>
<p>On the science side, she's completed honors bio and chem and non-honors physics and has chosen forensic science, a half-year course, for the fall. The other options (other than AP sciences she's not qualified for) are half-year courses in human physiology, marine biology or environmental science, each of which sounds much more substantive to me than the faddy, "CSI"-inspired forensics class. Counselor insists it's seen as a real science by admissions officers, since most high schools offer it now. I'm not convinced. How about some thoughts on this, too?</p>
<p>In my experience applying to public schools, forensic science isn't really considered a "science." Other than the standard bio, chem, and physics, I've only seen Earth and environmental science being used to fulfill the entrance requirements. To prove my point: </p>
<p>And having a math class senior year is IMO vital. More likely than not, your D will have to take a math class in college. If she doesn't take a math class senior year, she'll risk losing the knowledge necessary for her to succeed in that math class. My guidance counselor also said the same thing; colleges don't seem to like kids not taking at math their senior year. </p>
<p>Your D might like calculus, actually. Pre-Calc and Calc are very distinct. Calc builds on Pre-Calc, but trust me when I say that the two courses are very different.</p>
<p>I was hoping she could handle the college math problem with something like statistics, which might actually come in handy in other classes (or even real life). There are other ways to skin that cat (no bio lab reference intended), including avoiding schools that demand a traditional math class part of their core curriculum. The idea of forcing someone with no interest in math to take college calc has never made sense to me.</p>
<p>^ The idea is to make people be more well-rounded, hence "liberal arts." I have seen a lot of colleges that do offer nontraditional math classes (e.g. math in the social sciences) that meet the curriculum. </p>
<p>Where does your D want to apply just out of curiosity?</p>
<p>Not settled yet on choices--none that require calculus I guess! I certainly understand the liberal arts theory, but to me requiring a college course in calculus after 4 years of high school math is like requiring an additional year of of the same language you studied in h.s.--great if you happen to like it, but otherwise it's another step down a narrow path you're tired of, when you could be exploring one of many new paths at hand instead. I agree that many schools offer alternative math choices. I guess one of my questions is whether high school calculus would be necessary or helpful for any of them. And if not, why must my daughter add this misery to her senior year?</p>
<p>I would have not wanted to take statistics without calculus. Granted, many colleges have statistics courses without a calculus pre-requisite, but there are quite a few concepts and formulas that make a lot more sense with a calc background even if it's not required.</p>
<p>Since you are venting, let me vent a little bit too.</p>
<p>I am not at all a humanities person. Studying anything arts-related - literature, music, fine arts - makes me absolutely miserable. Why couldn't I opt out of that misery senior year? I don't need to read Shakespeare to live a fulfilled and productive life. Most people think it's ok not to study math and sciences, but few of them believe in opting out of English or history. Is knowing about the Civil War really more important than being able to read and interpret the ingredients lists of all the processed foods we eat every day?</p>
<p>It's not so much that calculus is absolutely necessary for a basic statistics as that the two subjects involve many of the same concepts. For example, in statistics the cumulative distribution function is the "sum" of the probabilities in the probability density function. In calculus these sums are called integrals if the probability space is continuous (e.g. temperatures) or Rieman sums if the space is discrete (e.g. money, people). If your D can grasp one of the two subjects, there is no reason that she cannot handle the other.</p>
<p>I agree with atrophicwhisper that calculus is very different from all previous math. Many students like calc because it ties together all the separate topics students have learned in math so far, and many students have the experience that math finally "makes sense". If it's well taught it is probably the most rewarding high school/introductory college math class, but it's one of the classes that I would not want to take with a mediocre teacher.</p>
<p>And what makes you think that statistics is easy? If anything, not knowing calculus will make the subject an array of memorizations and incomprehensible formulas that will mean nothing to your daughter and won't even stick with her. I would strongly recommend calculus - perhaps your daughter can get additional help with it from her teacher or peers. She can probably opt out of math entirely if she's not looking at any of the top-tier schools.</p>
<p>b@rlum: Sure, I can understand that those who hate the humanities would like to skip them senior year, but the skills polished in these classes--reading, writing, analyzing. synthesizing--will be of use throughout college and life. I don't think you can say the same for math classes beyond algebra/geometry. Would the fact that she did much better in algebra II than in pre-calc be predictive of anything for calc?</p>
<p>No guarantee that this calc class will be taught by one of the better teachers--they tend to get the honors and AP classes. This is a large public h.s. with a mixed student population. There's a lot of deadwood among the faculty.</p>
<p>olgita: I don't assume statistics is easier than college calc, but at least it's more purposeful for someone who isn't pursuing a math/science based course of study. If you have to kill yourself over something you're not fond of, you can get at least some motivation from the notion that it will be helpful in your other classes or your career. As for opting out of that fourth year of math if she's not going for a top tier school, I'm not sure how you're defining "top tier", but I suspect she's not headed that way--she'll qualify for "very selective" rather than "most selective". And that's one of the reasons I question this guidance counselor's advice. She also advised my son 5 years ago and never had an issue with his skipping a fourth year of math--he was accepted to George Washington ED, so it certainly wasn't an issue for them--but now she says with admissions so much more competitive than 5 years ago, it's a different analysis. </p>
<p>So that's why I look at the course list with alternative classes my daughter would thrive in and enjoy, like AP Art History or AP Psych, and ask myself if it's really sensible for her to to slog through calculus.</p>
<p>In my opinion, no one has to be mathematically gifted to excel in calculus. If there is an option where you can take the least rigorous calculus course and your daughter is more of the "understand concepts" person rather that "memorizing formulas" person, I would recommend choosing that.<br>
If your daughter instead prefer memorizing many different tests and formulas, then I would suggest taking statistics.</p>
<p>Taking math during your senior year is important. In college, your daughter will most likely be required to take a math class, and losing her grasp in that area is not good. (It's already more than two months for me, and I'm starting to forget my math stuff!)</p>