I had a HUGE debate with someone in the USNA summer program lol
they said that Naval A. is harder to get into (8-9% acceptance)
but i said that HYPSM is harder (10-11% acceptance)
because it depends on the person.
USNA has tons of people applying. and the people applying are NOT necessarily top academic students. There are mediocre students apply.
HYPSM is mostly VERY high-stats students.
So, the “application pool” is different, yet the “slots” are both limited. therefore, a smart* kid will have a better chance at USNA (assuming he does sports, leadership, etc.) than HYPSM. right??
<p>Service academy admissions are more unpredictable. Like you said it is easier for an average or above average student to get in because there was something about that individual that made them a good potential midshipman and officer. Even I'm still confused about the acceptance rate. It seems the 14,000 or so "applicants" are just kids who inquire about the academy online than those who actually completed the whole application process. The numbers keep cutting off and you have to be selected just to get an application packet. I agree that HYPSM is harder to get into only because the students who are of that level are very rare, even though if you are up there it's a guarantee you'll get into at least one of them.</p>
<p>the admissions standards and criteria are somewhat different. service academies want strong academic background and test scores, top athletic ability, leadership, and you also have to secure a nomination from a congressman via an interview. HYPSM want stellar academic background and test scores, strong leadership and extracurriculars, and other personal factors (essays). </p>
<p>i'd contend the TOP applicants for the service academies could get into HYPSM. well, look at west point's admit statistics. many of them are valedictorians, have leadership and other clubs, probably eagle scout, most likely pretty good on varsity sport(s), etc. finding such an applicant that is so mentally and physically balanced is rare though, and i would say that the bottom half of the applicants to the service academies wouldn't be able to get into HYPSM. </p>
<p>can every kid who gets into a service academy get into HYPSM? no. can every HYPSM kid get into a service academy? no.</p>
<p>"can every kid who gets into a service academy get into HYPSM? no. can every HYPSM kid get into a service academy? no."</p>
<p>I liked your reply here - not sure I want most of the HYP types protecting our country anyway. Hard to kill an enemy with a perfect SAT or great debate skills. Most of the "smart" kids I know aren't very athletic and would be terrible at the academies.</p>
<p>Comparing just the admittance rate is unfair because as was stated the groups for each school differ tremendously. The talent pool at HYPMS, or whatever the acrynomn, is higher than that of a service school. Not to knock down the service schools, because they are top notch in their own respects.</p>
<p>The people applying to the service academies have lower SAT scores, but there are more of them. If you judge the selectivity by % accepted, then they are about the same as Harvard. If you judge by the SAT scores required, they are easier.</p>
<p>The hardest school in the country to get into based upon % accepted is normally the Coast Coast Academy. If your friend is a big USNA fan, you could tell him that.</p>
<p>hey dufus, there is a lot more to the service academies than a friggin SAT score. Most of the cadets are just as smart as HYPSM students, but they do not spend as much time on academics.</p>
<p>You need to be smart (good grades and SAT), athletic (varsity sports, CFA exam), leadership (club officers, community leaders/volunteers, eagle scout, etc), good speaking skills and demeanor (interview with Congressional Representative or Senator), and much more.</p>
<p>HYPSM pretty much looks for brains. Of course the students there are often much stronger academically than the service academies, and there are athletes too, but the purposes are different. Asthma, food allergies, very poor eyesight, etc all disqualify you medically from a service academy.</p>
<p>I am not saying one is better than the other, but they are different. A cadet at West Point once told me that "living here is like volunteering to live in a jail for four years to reap the rewards after graduation." Of course 4 years of jail is an exaggeration. Usually the first year is the worst and then it's ok. But people who are not used to a strictly organized lifestyle would not be happy at a service academy.</p>
<p>"Most of the cadets are just as smart as HYPSM students, but they do not spend as much time on academics."</p>
<p>i dont know if most is the word, but perhaps many? and perhaps those at west point are closer to HYPSM caliber than the other service academies. </p>
<p>personally, among four friends who i know at the service academies, i could only think of one that would get into a HYPSM college as a regular applicant. the other three would be less than stellar for HYPSM standards. but this sample is not necessarily reflective of the overall student body.</p>
<p>kfc4u: I agree. Maybe many is a better term than most.</p>
<p>What I meant was that, many of the outstanding students whose goals are to get into HYPSM spend the vast majority of their time studying for school tests and standardized tests (SAT/ACT/AP). Most also make sure they participate in some ECs and maybe a sport.</p>
<p>But students who want to get into a service academy often have a lot more to do. The service academies demand leadership positions in ECs, being just a member just won't cut it in many cases. This means more time dedicated to ECs. For sports, they also look for multiple varsity letter winners. This means that you need to excel in sports, not just be a bench warmer. All this work leaves less time for academic endeavors, as I have experienced for myself.</p>
<p>For example, my best friend wants to enter an Ivy League school. School ends at 2:00PM and he goes home, and pretty much just studies for the rest of the day. (Of course some of that time is probably spent in from of the TV or on AIM, but you get the idea). He is very smart and his academic record is very excellent (I'll just leave it at that because if I told you his actual numbers, some wiseass here is going to make stupid remarks).</p>
<p>On the other hand, I have West Point as my goal. With sports, ECs, volunteer, etc. I usually do not get home until well after 6 P.M. After a shower and dinner, It's usually close to 8 P.M. by then. That leaves me much less time to work on academics than someone who gets home at 2:00 PM. I am just as "smart" as him, and he acknowledges that. But his academic record is better than mine (mine is pretty damn good too) because he has more time to dedicate to academics.</p>
<p>As most ppl know, for HYPSM, academics is most of your evaulation. Probably 80% or more (speculation). But for the service academies, it is factual that academics is only 60% of the evaluation. The remaining 40% is based on all your non-academic factors. If many of those cadets were to spend their high school years only focusing on academics, I'm sure most of them would have much higher SAT scores and GPAs. There is always a tradeoff. Nobody can be perfect in all areas.</p>
<p>Eugene S,
I don't know what I said to offend the service academics. The %-accepted and the SAT ranges are used by USNWR to rank the colleges. If you have to rank colleges by selectivity, the %-accepted is not a sufficient number by itself. Ranking colleges is never a good idea, but it is especially meaningless when comparing HYPSM-type schools and the service academics. However, the thing the two groups have in common is that it is extremely difficult to be accepted for the applicants who chose to apply.</p>
<p>It is not true not acceptance to HYPSM-type schools is 80% academics. For all selective schools, they first look at difficulty of curriculum, then gpa/rank/ and then standardized test scores. After you qualify by academics, they use EC's, essays, and recommendations to pick perhaps one out of every five qualified applicants. They want to see "passion" in one or two EC's. The essay should show the passion and the EC's back it up. Because so many qualified applicants are denied, the system is often called a lottery or a crap shoot. (Public schools are more numbers driven.)</p>
<p>I just wanted to debunk all the myths about acceptance into GYPSM vs. Service Academies.</p>
<p>I'm not saying you thought this way, but some people seem to get the impression that a lot of "dumb" people apply, making the applicant pool unnecessarily large, while HYPSM only has very qualified applicants.</p>
<p>I think what fishingmn and kfc4u said pretty much makes sense: "apples and oranges" and "can every kid who gets into a service academy get into HYPSM? no. can every HYPSM kid get into a service academy? no."</p>
<p>I just wanted to make everything clear. Sorry if you got the impression that I was mad or anything. I like to use words like "friggin" for no reason. lol</p>
<p>Ranking colleges is more important to the general public than anyone else. The general public has heard of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Vassar, MIT, Stanford, the service academies, and schools with Division 1 teams. For the most part, they think that UPenn is state school. In the public mind, going to Harvard, Yale, West Point, or the Naval Academy are all about equally impressive. The really important thing is how much going to a certain school will help your professional chances. Going to an Ivy as an undergraduate doesn't help hardly at all. The same can't be said about West Point or the Naval Academy.</p>
<p>"The really important thing is how much going to a certain school will help your professional chances. Going to an Ivy as an undergraduate doesn't help hardly at all. The same can't be said about West Point or the Naval Academy."</p>
<p>wait, what are you talking about? going to ivies and other top schools will definately help in terms of professional capital. your classmates are always looking for that lucrative internship, the clubs and other programs are well-run, the professors have a good wealth of knowledge and probably some insider connections, very helpful and knowledgeable counselors, many recruiters visit campus, etc. i go to a top 25 school but not HYPSM, and i feel like i'm always playing catch-up cuz while the opportunities are available for us, it seems like all my HYPSM friends know about it first. </p>
<p>going to a service academy does help your professional chances as well. well, obviously, you're going to be working with the military for the next 5 years after you graduate. after that, you're armed with the skills and stamina to transition into many civilian jobs. many professional schools also like a standout applicant from a military background. if none of the white-collar type jobs work out (not so likely), then at the very least you're armed with the technical skills learned in the military to do some blue-collar type jobs. </p>
<p>hmm... kelly perdew, who won the Apprentice, constantly stated that his military background was the biggest reason why he thought he could win the job.</p>
<p>Statistical studies have always shown that lifetime earnings are significantly greater for Ivy graduates. Using the Carnegie Mellon Foundation database of college graduates over four decades, recent studies have shown that lifetime earnings of people who were accepted to Ivies and then attended somewhere else are statistically the same as people who actually attended an Ivy. The conclusion is that the high earnings are because of the attributes of the person and not because of the association with the Ivy. Doctoral, Law, Medical and prestigious MBA degrees from Ivies do help due to the connections made, but these are graduate degrees. Also, the top companies recruit at the top colleges and going to a more prestigious job will help you with your first job. The mistake is to think that the prestigious undergraduate degree is that important over your entire lifetime. After the first job, it is on-the-job experience that counts more. Of course, that is important in the military too. However, being an academy graduate is important in promotions and assignments throughout your entire military career.</p>
<p>It is harder to get into HYPSM than the service academics if you are thinking of SAT scores. I really hate to compare admissions at HYPSM and the service academics. </p>
<p>In a similar way, I hate to compare admissions at engineering schools and non-engineering schools. Engineering programs are not as hard to get into as they could be except perhaps at MIT, CalTech, Georgia Tech and a few others. At most colleges, however, freshman year is a time when the faculty is trying to nurture the freshman and help them succeed. Engineering faculty thinks of freshman year as a time to thin the herd and move the less motivated students into other majors.</p>
<p>However you look at the admission process at HYPSM and the service academies, it is much harder to graduate from a service academy than it is to graduate from an Ivy.</p>
<p>I was just about to say it is harder to graduate from a military academy than any Ivy. When you get into an Ivy life if pretty much set from there. I just graduated from USNA's prep school and now I VALUE the word GRADUATION. It's a unique environment when you have about 5 hours worth of homework with only 3 hours to work on it. When you to stand watch at 3am and you have a math final in several hours. When you have to finish and submit your homework online and the officers come up with a great idea to have an alpha condition room inspection the next day. When you have to have the lights out by 10:30pm and have the door slighty open so whoever is on watch that night can make sure no one is up. The pressure can build up at times and the thought always haunt us "Why didn't I just go to a normal college?!" I can't speak for the academy yet but from the 250 classmates I have lived with for 10 months and will be joining me in two weeks they are the most dedicated individuals I have ever met.</p>