Sexual Assault & Drinking

Parents Forum
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<p>consolation,</p>

<p>I am aware that writers do not always choose their headlines (or even sub headers) so here are some quotes from the article that bothered me:</p>

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<p>In both of the above quotes (i added the bold for emphasis) we see what I referred to two pages ago: victims being the subject of transitive verbs regarding what leads to rape. Intentionally or not - the author is writing a statement that connotes victims as agents in their crimes. We would never write something like “children in foster care put themselves at risk of being abused,” or “when you are a disabled child, you drastically increase the chances that you will attract the kinds of people who, shall we say, don’t have your best interest at heart” Why? Because we all fully grasp the concept that children in these contexts deserve no share of the blame for being abused. Those sentences literally look ridiculous to us - yet make it a about drunk girls getting raped and it all of a sudden becomes a well written warning? That says that we believe at least SOME degree of blame is to be put on them. Therefore, we are blaming the victim.</p>

<p>Switching gears to statements that are not necessarily victim blaming but still really, really terrible:</p>

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<p>The false accusation thing is so, so, so, rare but the damage done on reporting rates by perpetuating this myth is ENORMOUS. Also, notice that her concern is not that her son will find himself raping a drunken classmate, but will find himself accused (passive tense - not an agent in the situation)</p>

<p>And then probably the most heartbreaking statement of all:</p>

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<p>Glad to hear that keeping students safe is simply not a core mission of colleges. It’d be one thing to say not to expect it because of how difficult it is - but that’s not what Lake chose to say :(</p>

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<p>I’m so glad to hear a young man weighing in on this so insightfully. </p>

<p>The thing to get from the Lisak is not the number of serial rapists, but the number of rapes committed by them. It’s large. </p>

<p>False reporting for rape is no higher than for any other crime. False conviction is vanishingly rare. </p>

<p>Accidental rape is an interesting concept. Since normal men find rape inconceivable, and do not think like rapists, they fear this mistake could happen to anyone. The more we can educate young men to understand that this isn’t really the case, the more they will all begin to think like wannabebrown on the subject, though probably not as subtly. </p>

<p>Bystander intervention education is considered to be the best route for this. It assists young men in understanding how they can help and that they really can be a part of the solution. Most men really do want to help</p>

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<p>"We would never write something like “children in foster care put themselves at risk of being abused,” or “when you are a disabled child, you drastically increase the chances that you will attract the kinds of people who, shall we say, don’t have your best interest at heart” Why? Because we all fully grasp the concept that children in these contexts deserve no share of the blame for being abused. "</p>

<p>No – it’s because children have no control over their foster status or their disabilities. Women DO have control over whether they get drunk. I have really different expectations of adults vs. children when it comes to the responsibility for self care.</p>

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<p>“when they get wasted, they are putting themselves in potential peril”</p>

<p>It might be true, but I can’t find any evidence for it. When they go to parties, they put themselves in peril, when they drink they put themselves in peril, when they go to college, they put themselves in peril. </p>

<p>“Lake says that it is unrealistic to expect colleges will ever be great at catching and punishing sexual predators; that’s simply not their core mission”</p>

<p>As previously noted, Lake is a lawyer, not a psychologist, nor an alcohol/drug abuse authority, and knows nothing about what actually happens on college campuses. Anything he has to say is pure speculation.</p>

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<p>Hanna, do you genuinely believe that a young woman at college who goes to a party and has a drink or two has contributed to her own rape?</p>

<p>Do you not believe rapists are the criminals? </p>

<p>I’m having a challenging time following your logic.</p>

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<p>Not really, and probably doesn’t “scare my sons” either. The description given is awful close to libel and also implies something that simply doesn’t exist. Rape is not miscommunication. Rape is not generally “accidental” which is why there is no such thing as “accidental rape” and I think it is a term that should be abolished and women, not men should be the ones who scream like crazy when the term gets used.</p>

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<p>[Is</a> this the truth about false rape accusations? | News | theguardian.com](<a href=“Is this the truth about false rape accusations? | Women | The Guardian”>Is this the truth about false rape accusations? | Women | The Guardian)</p>

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<p>What!!!I did NOT libel anyone. I only defined a term because another poster asked what it meant. Did you miss the part where I said that there have been arguments on this board as to whether this is a frequent occurrence, a rare one or one that exists at all?</p>

<p>See my post #33 and go yell at someone else.</p>

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<p>Well actually, women need to refrain from screaming about things, momofthree, as you pointed out in an earlier post. </p>

<p>The term is offensive to men, really. Maybe they should be the ones to shout about it.</p>

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<p>For heaven’s sake. I was responding to a post comparing drunk women to foster children. They aren’t anything like foster children. I said that adult women, in contrast, have a responsibility for self-care and choose to get drunk.</p>

<p>How do you get from that to the idea that rapists aren’t criminals? You’re only having trouble following my logic because you’re making leaps that aren’t there.</p>

<p>Adults have a responsibility to take care of themselves that children don’t share. A person getting wasted drunk isn’t taking care of him/herself. And yet – at the same time! – rapists remain criminals whether they attack responsible or irresponsible people. As Hunt put it, we have to hold two ideas in our heads at the same time. A person being irresponsible, even reckless, never deserves to be raped. We can discourage recklessness AND condemn rape.</p>

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<p>I have no problem with that.</p>

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<p>Not you jonri…the term itself. And yes poet both men and women should be screaming about that term, if it’s becoming something “used” by media and/or people. But I came at from my perspective as a women, the word accidental is offensive I think. I presume men might also feel that way also.</p>

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<p>Okay. I apologize for overreacting. I don’t think though that the term is used by the media. And, I think that some people who use it agree with your basic position. What I mean is that when someone claims an alleged rape was just a matter of miscommunication, the response is along the lines of "Yeah, right, the rape was an “accident.”</p>

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<p>Jonri, I said the above in the sentence <em>immediately</em> before the one you chose to quote, so yes, obviously, I think that the things you suggest are PRECISELY the times when others should be encouraged to intervene.</p>

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<p>You are right Hanna. We can discourage certain behavior but we can do that in a way that doesn’t place undue (or unintended) agency on victims of a crime.</p>

<p>“Rapists are more likely to target a woman who has been drinking” has different connotations and psychological impact than “women who have been drinking are putting themselves at risk of rape.”</p>

<p>Separate issue: the other issue with your sentiment though is it sounds like many studies disprove the idea that victims were engaging in reckless behavior. “Drinking” which has been associated with sexual assault, is not the same thing as being blackout, stumbling all over yourself drunk (which is reckless for other reasons).</p>

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<p>“Rapists are more likely to target a woman who has been drinking” has different connotations and psychological impact than “women who have been drinking are putting themselves at risk of rape.”</p>

<p>I completely agree. I think wanna be’s point is an important distinction, and doesn’t dilute the message of risk,it simply places the “ownership” on the rapist. </p>

<p>I would want young women going off to college to understand that there are men who are predators who may provide alcohol and/or drugs, openly or secretly and may also seek out women who appear to be vulnerable/intoxicated/impaired. I would add to this educational message that it’s possible for the most charming guy on campus to be a predator/rapist.</p>

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<p>'ll try to summarize my key points. Then I’ll bow out because I think I’ve become more than a bit repetitive.</p>

<p>I think it’s dangerous to drink to excess. I think you are more likely to become a victim of crime if you do. However, I think we do young women a disservice if we imply that you’re “safe” if you don’t drink to excess. In one study, 45% of all campus rape victims did not drink before the attack. Using an extreme example, it is alleged that drunken BU hockey players broke down the door of a woman in a dorm and raped her in her room. She didn’t drink. She locked her door.</p>

<p>I think we ought to focus on the perps more than the victims. We have to come up with a way to deal with the problem. Right now, I think there are two approaches. One is to report the crime to the real police ASAP. In the acquaintance rape situation the odds that the police will prosecute are minuscule. If the victim has had anything to drink and is underage, they are virtually non-existent. It’s hard to get a conviction and it may take more than a year even if the prosecution prevails. Going to the police is far from a panacea.</p>

<p>I don’t think we can afford to use a " beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in campus judicial proceedings for alleged rape cases. I think there has to be some lower threshold at which a young man who probably raped someone gets expelled. I don’t think it should be the case that either we have enough proof to put you in prison or, if we don’t, there are no consequences at all. </p>

<p>The other approach–one that is all too common in college–is to act as if a rape is like a roommate argument. You each tell your story and then we try to work something out like “the person a disciplinary panel found raped someone can’t talk to the victim,” but can still continue in class and walk around campus and perhaps even continue living in the same dorm as the victim. In the Occidental College case, the alleged perp, who has never been publicly identified, was found to have sexually assaulted another student in a campus judiciary proceeding. He allegedly raped two more women AFTER that. He admitted that he sexually assaulted one of them. And after 3 findings that he had committed the conduct in question, he was suspended for one semester. </p>

<p>I don’t pretend to have all…or even any…of the answers. I do think we need to recognize that there are serial rapists on college campuses and do more than just tell women “Don’t drink too much” to stop them. I think we need to recognize that college judiciary boards aren’t equipped to deal with rape investigations–they don’t have the resources or the know how to conduct sophisticated investigations. I don’t think we should be asking college students to decide whether accusations of rape are true–and that’s what happens on some college campuses now. </p>

<p>I think we have to focus more on prevention. I think men are key to this. I think men have to speak up when someone brags about “banging” a “drunk chick.” They have to respond to the kind of tweets that came out of Steubenville. I think they have to step in to stop something that looks off. And, yes, I think we ought to tell our kids to help friends who drink too much. </p>

<p>I don’t think we should get bogged down in issues as to what percentage of female college students are raped, or whether going to a party without drinking increases your risk, or how many false accusations of rape are made before we start searching for solutions.</p>

<p>With that, I’ll bow out of this thread.</p>

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<p>Correction,
It was not alleged that the BU hockey player raped the woman, only that he kissed, groped her, etc. [<a href=“http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2012/08/07/hockey-player-corey-trivino-admits-assaulting-woman-boston-university-dorm/CiD3dl6ZS3y2d4rEOER9EJ/story.html[/url]”>http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2012/08/07/hockey-player-corey-trivino-admits-assaulting-woman-boston-university-dorm/CiD3dl6ZS3y2d4rEOER9EJ/story.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>My concern is that the reaction to Yoffe’s article, and to any other similar comments, makes it hard to get the message to young women that drinking to excess increases their risks. While it would obviously be better to address the perpetrators and prevent these crimes in the first place, Yoffe wasn’t talking to them–and I have to talk to my daughter. I think the message has to be clear, just as the message about drinking and driving and other dangers has to be clear. I get that it isn’t fair that women have to be concerned about these risks–it’s horribly unfair. But if I don’t warn my daughter about this risk, and tell her ways to reduce the risk, I’d be a lousy parent. I don’t want her rapist to be punished–because I don’t want her to be raped in the first place.</p>

<p>But if you don’t like Emily Yoffe’s article, and think it’s unbalanced, then try writing one about what people can do to stop the perpetrators. It’s not so easy.</p>

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<p>but remember, I_wanna be, that Jonri does define drunk as being passed out, though you or I may see them as independent.</p>