<p>@fluffy2017 by ‘end of their ideas’ I just meant they had tried a lot of the things suggested on here already. Two different local ccs with him living at home, intervention and a job…and he had to buy into it. But I guess you are right. Looking at it from the point of view of a parent with a significantly DEPRESSED child, rather than an aggressive one (and it seems they never saw that side of him) sending him to a place he considered a dream location to shake him out of depression might seem a very good idea. 20 20 hindsight argues not so much, of course.</p>
<p>@sally305 I said studies on both sides. I don’t have to click to see what Salon’s would say. Please just note my placeholder; I disagree.</p>
<p>collegevetting, it’s JOHNS HOPKINS’, not “Salon’s.” Here’s one from Columbia. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inquiries/news_events/2010/July2010/guncontrol-survey”>http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inquiries/news_events/2010/July2010/guncontrol-survey</a></p>
<p>From everything I have read, across the political spectrum most people support sensible restrictions, not an outright ban on gun ownership.</p>
<p>The parents lived in the San Fernando Valley. Photos of their homes were in the Times and on TV. They were very middle class homes, not mansions, not even McMansions. ER may have been spoiled and indulged but the parents were not rich.</p>
<p>So glad your son is okay, dietz. I’m sure this effects people all over but so many people in California in particular. Even 7 years after Virginia Tech, I still vividly remember where I was when I first heard the news, first seeing 6 reported dead, then the numbers climbing to unimaginable numbers. My oldest was at UVa at the time but he/we knew many kids at VT. A friend called me , hearing “Virginia” and “engineering” to make sure my son was okay. I was grateful and reminded her that he was at UVa , not VT. But that day was awful, knowing we knew people at VT, including a couple of kids in engineering, and not knowing who was gone for hours. The perpetrator was not in engineering but a lot of his victims were. Not the same as a parent so can’t even imagine how panicked you would be. I was very anxious just wondering about the safety of local kids not my own. UCSB will recover. Virginia Tech has although we will always remember, never forget. My younger son started college at Virginia Tech in 2009.</p>
<p>@sally305 yeah, and any study Salon quoted is likely to have that outcome. </p>
<p>I think if you look at my past posts you will see I know how to pull sources myself, but I decline to do so. If people think there are not two sides to the issue, they can research it themselves. I just don’t like tragedies being used to push agendas.</p>
<p>and @deitz I am very glad your son is ok. I was glad my own hadn’t gone off to college yet. What an awful four minutes.</p>
<p>@sevmom I remember reading about the students creating memorials after the VT shooting. I was really impressed with everything I read about the way they handled it. I think Isla Vista will be closer and stronger after this, but at a terrible price. What I’ve seen of the way the students there are handling it makes me very proud of them.</p>
<p>I know how you felt, dietz. My son was living in Denver when I heard about the Aurora shooting. I could easily imagine that he could’ve gone to a late-night movie. It was a couple of bad hours before I heard from him. </p>
<p>My very close friend has a sister who is mentally ill. This sister has had long periods of being able to manage on her own before crashing. She was not diagnosed until was well in middle age and a psychotic episode spun so out of control that it was clear she could get dangerous. But she did have jobs, she got married (yes, to a ne’er do well), has two children, owns a house free and clear, and has some savings. There were some terrible years when she went in and out of institutes, she did some jail time, she was in halfway houses, was homeless, just about the entire gambit. At her age now, 60, she is on disability and if she can rent out her basement, have her sons and siblings all contribute a little can live independently… until she has an episode. Which she had a couple of years ago, losing a tenant and a brother took her to court to wrench the home away from her, and have her committed and he failed miserable. When she’s on a good roll, there isn’t a judge that will put her away, take anything away from her. </p>
<p>She does work closely with mental health experts. And they do preserve her rights and really push for her to be as independent as possible, something that has led to disasters. But what can a family do who can’t take it on full scale, doesn’t know how to deal with this, but to do as these guides, gurus, specialists advise? It’s well and good to say to monitor the bank account, keep the person on a short leash, but when you are in the midst of a real life situation, what to do is not always clear, and if you don’t know what you are doing, you let the experts tell you as they are not so emotionally wrought, worn out and just unable to deal. So yes, I can see a parent providing the comforts that affordable to that parent to a child, as this UCSB situation showed. There are oddballs at any number of campuses, and there is always the hope that they somehow find a niche and can manage. My alma mater has a bunch of them that are certifiably insane, and supported by well to do parents.</p>
<p>The problem is when that cross over to violence is made, and when that includes weaponry, especially the sort that can cause such wide scale devastation. My DH’s family lives in teh "back woods’ and there’s many a crazy coot out there with guns, but there isn’t the population density, the guns are not semi automatics, and people know each other there. Still… yes, that situation exists too. </p>
<p>This is a “perfect storm” of a disaster that brewed. What’s frightening, terrifying, IMO, is that these ingredients are right there these days, which is why this is happening again and again. The precedents have been set, the weaponry is available, tolerance of those who are off is not what is oftne was in small communities, social rules have become more complex, the social media, tv, video cames are all there to make a mix that is potent and explosive. Old problems in settings that are now hepped up, and we have not been able to keep up with this development. </p>
<p>Yes,collegevetting, there is a very moving memorial on the Drillfield at Virginia Tech, individual markers for the 32 victims made of Hokie stone (as are most of the buildings). Everyone in Virginia was shaken by this. Many UVa students had many friends at Virginia Tech and the old rivalries were set aside to mourn this horrific event. I think that has been happening in California as well, with different campuses holding vigils and expressing support.</p>
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<p>While information is still developing on this, my impression from reading the manifesto and talking to some folks who worked in the mental health field about this case is that he likely had a personality disorder like NPD which is extremely difficult to diagnose and treat to even ameliorate the symptoms. </p>
<p>If this is the case, there’s little anyone else could have done as unless they have unguarded written material like the manifesto or catch the individual concerned unguarded, even mental health professionals have difficulties diagnosing or treating those disorders as one characteristic is the ability to charm and manipulate others…including unwary mental health professionals into believing they’re normal and well-adjusted when the reality is otherwise. </p>
<p>If so, trying to blame the parents or anyone else is likely a futile exercise which isn’t likely to promote an atmosphere conducive to better understanding of what happened and the causal factors. </p>
<p>Question for the posters: if you had a 22 yr old son who had not gone to school in 3 years (or had a job for even longer), was not taking his medication, wandering around Santa Barbara aimlessly every day with nothing to do and, most importantly, had NO friends and was constantly telling you how miserable he was, would you continue to finance that lifestyle? Surely, they were aware that something was seriously wrong with this kid. Someone who could not form an interpersonal relationship with anyone is not just depressed or mildly ill.</p>
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<p>So what? Why are any of those relevant to this case?
NONE of those things if they were enacted would have made a difference.</p>
<p>Secondly, just a couple years ago, the majority of people were against gay marriage and earlier against civil rights and early against women having the right to vote. Sometimes you have to follow the Constitution rather than mob rule.</p>
<p>Here are the rules on the books today with regard to mental health and gun laws:
<a href=“Possession of Firearms by People With Mental Illness”>Policy Research;
<p>And here is the amazing inaction on the States to deal with this, top of the list, liberal Massachusetts:
<a href=“http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/01/28/massachusetts-among-worst-sharing-mental-health-data-for-gun-background-checks/WmvEKsnUWsQWxvvsXwLY5O/story.html”>http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/01/28/massachusetts-among-worst-sharing-mental-health-data-for-gun-background-checks/WmvEKsnUWsQWxvvsXwLY5O/story.html</a></p>
<p>And the NRA has been pushing for a national mental health registry to prevent these types of cases. But no results…maybe they aren’t as powerful as you think:
<a href=“http://www.denverpost.com/politics-national/2012/12/mental-health-advocates-blast-nra-speech/”>http://www.denverpost.com/politics-national/2012/12/mental-health-advocates-blast-nra-speech/</a></p>
<p>Goldenpooch, I don’t know the answer because I am fortunate enough to never have been in that position (and it sounds like you have been lucky as well).My 20 something kids are both employed and self supporting and seem to be doing okay (and I feel very grateful and hope that continues- but you never know what can happen in the future). My kids have also been pretty normal kids with somewhat typical teenage and young adult bumps along the way- this kid always seemed to be considered to be odd… For his parents, it may have seemed a success just to have him be able to be out of the house and living on his own, not seeming to be actively suicidal or needing to be hospitalized. I really don’t sense that his parents had abandoned him.</p>
<p>CF: Oh my…I don’t know how you lasted a few hours until you heard from your son. It really, honestly was like time stretched or stopped during those 4 minutes. </p>
<p>The UCSB Chancellor as well as Janet Napolitano have sent out letters to the UCSB community and to the parents. UCI and UCLA police have been pulled in to help increase the patrol presence in IV. A memorial fund has been established. There is no choice but to begin the healing process.</p>
<p>The sad truth is that there may be nothing that can be done to prevent these types of mass killings. He bought his firearms legally in a state with strict gun laws. He killed three with a machete. He injured at least two with his car (much like David Attias did in 2001 killing 4 people intentionally, also in Isla Vista). It’s impossible to predict (absent Day of Retribution type videos) exactly who is going to commit these crimes. None of the recent mass murderers had a prior criminal record. Mental health treatment may help but can’t be forced and often does not
cure. Fortunately, despite the headlines they get, these types of mass murders are a very small percentage of murders in this country. </p>
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<p>As a parent, that is what really hits home for me.
I would expect that if they thought he was even remotely capable of a murderous rampage, that they would have gone with a very different plan.
And it wasn’t even “just” the impersonal, distance shooting (as in a video game, pull trigger, people fall), it was the brutal, highly personal, face-to-face use of a hammer and knives to kill people he knew…not once, not twice, three times. The scene apparently was horrific, and I would expect he had blood all over him. That is monstrous. </p>
<p>He went to a beautiful place, got set up with a car, apartment and some spending money and I would think his parents were hoping he would make some friends, get a girlfriend and he would be more able to deal with his depression (I know there is medical depression and environment change won’t help, but there is also situational depression).</p>
<p>“Question for the posters: if you had a 22 yr old son who had not gone to school in 3 years (or had a job for even longer), was not taking his medication, wandering around Santa Barbara aimlessly every day with nothing to do and, most importantly, had NO friends and was constantly telling you how miserable he was, would you continue to finance that lifestyle?”</p>
<p>Like you know all the answers.
So, you tell him no, kick him out and leave him homeless.
The same general scenario occurs - just different particulars.
Can we all jump on you because if you had shown some compassion and provided a roof over his head and let him live with you, he wouldn’t have snapped?</p>
<p>The Monday morning QB-ing here is sickening. These are tough situations and the right call between compassion and tough love is easy to make in retrospect. Like I said, grace of God go any of us. </p>
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<p>That seems to be a common problem with reposes to incidents. Certainly was true of virtually all the proposed responses to Sandy Hook. </p>
<p>Regarding the parents: I think there may be some “blame” there, but I’ll also say that, if he had been my son, I don’t have any confidence that the outcome would have been any different. One hopes that it would have been, but I think there are too many things mitigating against a satisfactory outcome. I am thankful that he wasn’t my son. </p>
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<p>Right. There’s never a good time to talk about how to stop this kind of thing from happening. It’s either too soon or too far in the past. We should all just make sure we have candles and paper cups on hand for the next time.</p>
<p>I’m sorry but we all know this kind of thing does not happen in any other civilized country with anywhere near the frequency that it does here. Guns are not the only factor, but they are a significant one, and denying the veracity of two studies from two universities widely held up here as superior) is just head-shaking to me.</p>
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<p>We don’t know how much the parents were aware of each of the points mentioned above.
For example, how would they know he was wandering aimlessly or that he wasn’t taking his meds?
The dad spoke with him the day before and he said that he appeared fine…who knows what the son told him? (“Everythings fine, went out with my roommates last night, met an interesting girl at the store who I plan to ask out, been studying things online by myself, learning programming and I plan to go back to school next year”).</p>
<p>He was highly manipulative and delusional so that wouldn’t surprise me.</p>
<p>The police visit in April reported back that he seemed fine, it was a misunderstanding, kid seems fine.</p>