<p>Ok- havent had my morning cuppa Joe yet so I’ll bite. GP, your posts seem to be baiting other posters, which serves little other than to derail a thread.</p>
<p>This has been a civil, fascinating discussion amongst parents, parents of children with MH struggles, parents with their own history of struggles, MH professionals, etc, Your comments that some of the posters with their own struggles would “personalize it” to “this degree” and have an “intense reaction” and to claim some had an " emotional over-the top response" is not only inaccurate, its inflammatory and offensive. It adds nothing constructive to this conversation. </p>
<p>You might want to give pause as to why few responded to your silly hypothetical overdramatization, which you posted, along with your opinion on the matter, several times. The absolutes that are postulated are without merit. We do not know how often ER’s parents had direct or indirect contact with their son, and your hypothetical seems to assume that he would have been able to hold down a job or tolerate school, which may be inaccurate. Perhaps the family should have pursued applying for Social security disability for ER (we do not know if they did or did not). And no one is saying the family dynamics might be a contributing factor. People dont live in a vacuum. There is likely a nature-nurture factor at play. But many here are not as willing as you to throw them under the bus and assume they did as little as you seem to. </p>
<p>“But many here are not as willing as you to throw them under the bus and assume they did as little as you seem to”</p>
<p>I wonder who is being overdramatic and inflammatory.</p>
<p>Of course, you only focus on holding down a job or going to school which I never said were the only alternatives. How about taking his medication or going to therapy on a consistent basis? Maybe you haven’t noticed but there are many MH professionals and others in the media who have questioned the parent’s role in all of this. </p>
<p>“And no one is saying the family dynamics might (not) be a contributing factor.”</p>
<p>Actually, there have been a number of posters who have said this</p>
<p>I do not plan to engage in this further with you, GP, but to clarify, I simply gave examples of school and work. That does not mean those are the only issues. When a person is angry and suspicious, they often don’t trust their treating doctors any more than the rest of the world, and compliance is a challenge. That’s part of their disorder. And often medication side effects are experienced before the benefits of the medication, so some patients discontinue their meds prematurely rather than work with their treating physicians to adjust the dosage or try a different medication of the side effects are intolerable.</p>
<p>Actually, Jym I don’t really think you can think you can going call going to a random psychiatrist twice and never going back a “treating doctor” can you? I sure wouldn’t. Currently, I have no treating doctors although at various times in my life I have been to multiple doctors. He reportedly did have two psychologists , one in SA and one in LA but who knows if he was seeing them and I don’t think that’s where you go to get Xanax, anyway. We do know he called them useless. I don’t get how you get drugs without a diagnoses. Every article says he was not diagnosed with anything.</p>
<p>Apologies, actingmt but I cant decipher the first sentence of your post I think you are addressing the term treating doctor. There is a treating doctor and a primary treating doctor. If you’ve seen someone for a consultation, that may be a consullting physician, but its sort of semantics.</p>
<p>As was mentioned previously, people change doctors, or have multiple doctors for a variety of reasons. And Meds are often prescribed to manage symptoms, and can be used for off label reasons as well. Research has shown (apologies dont have time to find it right now) that a large percentage of patients going to the Dr. expect to leave the visit with a prescription of some kind.</p>
<p>ER has been described as very anxious and shy. He might have had an anxiety disorder diagnosis somewhere along the line and been RX xanax tof his anxiety.</p>
<p>Someone used the expression "treating doctor. I question whether there was such a thing in this case. Perhaps, when he was a child, but as he got older it sounds like his parents occasionally forced him to go see someone, anyone. And, yeah, he left with a prescription for Risperidone once and a prescription for Xanax another time. That was from another doctor as far as we know. The expression “treating doctor” irked me because I suspect there is no such person. That’s what I meant.</p>
<p>He had reportedly seen many providers (doctors, therapists) since the age of 9. WHile he didnt comply with treatment, that does not mean they were not a treating doctor. Again, just a matter of semantics, I think.</p>
<p>ER saw Dr. Sophy twice. The last time was 2012. He’s a celeb psychiatrist/ county medical director with controversial issues/ reality television star. Officially, he’s a doctor of osteopathic medicine.</p>
<p>Also, as far as prevention goes, any number of people could have done something differently in this case. The police could have stumbled into his torture chamber bedroom, somehow. Although, I don’t think they were negligent in not demanding to go inside and I don’t think he would have nicely let them in. We could be looking at a couple of dead cops instead of 6 dead students. His parents could have forbid him to go back to SB after he broke his leg to attend classes online which doesn’t make a lick of sense, either. But, I think they were trying to do what they thought was best. The fortunate former roommate who suspected that he had a gun in there could have reported it. But, I certainly don’t blame him. There are probably countless points in his life where something should have been done differently by someone. Sadly, it wasn’t. </p>
<p>Now, if you said that family dynamics plays a role in the development of mental illness in SOME children, I’d agree. Your statement as written–which is what I certainly disagree with–is that family dynamics is of great importance in the development of mental illness in (seemingly) ALL children with mental illness. </p>
<p>And I agree with you that it is speculation to assume that the parents did everything possible, just as it is speculation to assume that the parents were somehow (unintentionally) a factor. We don’t know yet how or IF the parents’ actions were a factor. I’m not speculating on this. It’s unfair to all concerned. As a parent and a citizen, of course I want to understand if there are actions that I, personally, can take to avoid a tragedy involving a child, a relative, a friend, a coworker. </p>
<p>Parents’ actions or inactions are almost always a factor. Again, that does not necessarily make them blameworthy (but sometimes it does, like Nancy Lanza allowing Adam access to guns), it just means they are responsible for taking some influential role in their childrens’ lives. They may succeed or fail, but they can’t do nothing, or else they can expect some blame to come their way.</p>
<p>Goldenpooch, several posts ago, you claimed it was your last post on this thread. Obviously, you are free to keep contributing but that’s a bit odd and funny. </p>
<p>I just don’t think we can say what the parents should or should not have done. This was beyond a mere discipline problem where a parent may give a consequence if the kid doesn’t do X or Y. This kid had mental illness. If they knew he did not attend classes (they may not have even known) or wanted him to hold down a job (may not have been that possible for him to do), or take his meds (how do you make an adult take meds, let alone monitor that), I’m not sure punishment is the answer. In any case, once again, we don’t know that much of what the parents did or did not do. We know some things they did do and it appears they were not absent in this kid’s life. </p>
<p>As pointed out by two posters when I used the term “psychotic break” it was chosen out of the air and wasn’t meant to be a technical diagnosis. I will rephrase my point. Many have said that ER was not “on the spectrum” or had some additional psychological condition which contributed to his actions. If that is the case can his writings be used as an accurate testimony of what his parents did or didn’t do on his behalf or the state of their home life and family dynamic? If ER’s vision of his relationship with random women is so warped can his accounts of his family life be taken at face value?</p>
<p>I am looking at the form now, and the question is part of the “practice profile” section, and I don’t think all of them would be considered high risk. For example </p>
<p>“do you keep records for each individual patient?”. Some others are
“if your practice includes prisoners, is this a correctional facility?”. There is a group of questions asking
“do you advertise as a specialist in the evaluation andtreatment of anyof the following; borderline PD, chronic pain, multiple personality disorder or dissociative disorders, childhood sexual abuse, eating disorder, sex therapy.” One question asks about
"forensics, include child custody…, juvenille justice and violence…explain on a seprate sheet. " The next question is “do you communicate with your patients via emai…please explain tne nature of communications in detail.”. </p>
<p>“If ER’s vision of his relationship with random women is so warped can his accounts of his family life be taken at face value?”</p>
<p>No, of course not. No-one’s can. For instance, if you ask any troubled or even slightly disgruntled teenager about their home life the story you get will be very different from parent’s perception and that’s in cases where everyone is being honest. We all see things through our own prism and this is especially pronounced during adolescence. Memories are funny things, as well. It’s entirely possible to remember a happy childhood or a miserable childhood depending on which set of events takes precedence in your own mind. It’s basically the difference between an authorized and an unauthorized biography. Only the facts are that facts. We do have some facts, though. </p>
<p>@saintfan - I actually thought of this several pages ago but because I have not read the manifesto, did not feel I could speculate on this. </p>
<p>I don’t think we can take anything he wrote in his manifesto (or what he may or may not have said on his YouTube videos) at face value. I think this is why I have such a hard time with blaming the parents. We’re only hearing parts of his story, and bits and pieces of the other side. How anyone can make such pinpointed judgements based on these incomplete reports, I don’t know.</p>
I think you are addressing the term treating doctor. There is a treating doctor and a primary treating doctor. If you’ve seen someone for a consultation, that may be a consullting physician, but its sort of semantics.</p>