<p>It might just be semantics, but the therapist may not have had 5150 authority. She can make a case to those with authority, but cannot make it happen. They might be what people are calling “the agency”. Only a “handful” of people (maybe 20 other than the police in my county) have the authority to place an involuntary hold. They are called “crisis services” and they have a contract with our county. The police, or if it is not dangerous the family member, brings them there. </p>
<p>Back to an issue from earlier today. Many moons ago my DH accidentally called 911 on his cell. Probably butt dialed it. I forget. but i think he hung up and They called back. He apologized and told them it was an error. The cops came anyway. Rang the bell and asked to come inside. A soon as they saw everyone was fine they bid us a nice day and left. But the 5 that showed up to talk to ER should have done the same. They should have asked to come inside. I am certain my DH sounded quite contrite and soft spoken, as ER may have. But they came and asked to come inside anyway. </p>
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<p>No one posted that because it is completely irrelevant and a needless distraction.</p>
<p>But here is something that actually is relevant.</p>
<p>Another school related hammer attack in California:</p>
<p><a href=“Mother Accused Of Hammer Attack On 3rd-Grade Girl In Oakland School Restroom - CBS San Francisco”>http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/05/30/mother-accused-of-hammer-attack-on-third-grade-girl-in-oakland-school-restroom-recess-elementary-school-assault-family-feud/</a></p>
<p>“but unlike Goldenpooch, I don’t see the parents/family as the cause of these kids’ problems.”</p>
<p>“Thanks for blaming me for my son’s Aspergers and his failures in college”</p>
<p>“But to not understand that mental illness often has a biological basis is simplistic thinking.”</p>
<p>I never said any of the above. First, I don’t consider Aspergers a mental disease or illness. ER had many more problems than just Aspergers. He had a severe personality disorder bordering on psychosis. Second, I never said the parents caused the kid’s problems or that mental illness does not often have a biological basis. What I am saying is the parents were irresponsible to allow him to live in this college town without him doing anything constructive with his life for three years. And I am also saying that family dynamics play a part in mental illness and usually there is considerable pathology in many families where mental illness is an issue with the children. It may not always be true but frequently it is. </p>
<p>I happen to think there is more than meets the eye with this family. I do think if things were done differently we may have avoided the carnage ER inflicted upon these innocent bystanders. I don’t think you can interpret these remarks to say that I think these parents caused this kid’s problems. However, I wouldn’t object if you suggested that I am saying the parents may have exacerbated the problems with their head-in-the-sand attitude and possibly their maladaptive interpersonal relationships with ER and to each other. Of course, no one can know with certainty what’s going on with this family, but I am certainly not influenced by what their attorney or family advisers are saying to the media.</p>
<p>That’s all conjecture with no substance to support it. </p>
<p>Duplicate post</p>
<p>The “agency” is also being called a county mental health hotline in some of these stories. It’s very confusing. And, police say the caller self-identified as a friend. Maybe, it’s on tape.</p>
<p><a href=“http://ktla.com/2014/05/29/new-details-on-welfare-check-made-on-isla-vista-killer-before-rampage/#axzz33Ln9iw8n”>http://ktla.com/2014/05/29/new-details-on-welfare-check-made-on-isla-vista-killer-before-rampage/#axzz33Ln9iw8n</a></p>
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<p>No, fluffy, it’s not. An attack on a third grader (presumably involving vengeance against a particular family) has ZERO to do with this story. My post was in response to the discussion the other day of the “bubbas” toting guns everywhere. Which was actually in this thread.</p>
<p>Interesting, Shrinkrap, re email. I have a different license and my malpractice insurer does not ask about email. I I wonder how Kaiser gets by in terms of malpractice insurance since they do rely on physician-paitent email. </p>
<p>Anyhow, here is what I was thinking. Say ER had kept to what he said in his email and the day of retribution was the next day. He sends the email to the therapist. The therapist sees it and thinks he has enough to call the police (which, in my opinion, he did). What is going to be more compelling to the police, a therapist saying, “I believe this person is a danger because he left me a voicemail rambling about a day of retribution” or “I believe this patient is a danger and I have an email detailing all of his plans that I can show you right now.” I think the email itself would command an instant response from the authorities. Whether or not email is generally a good idea, in a situation like this where it serves as proof of intent, it might speed up a response. </p>
<p>@sally305</p>
<p>The attacker in the article I linked used a hammer.
This story of this thread had the attacker use a hammer.
Sounds like there is something in common.</p>
<p>That attacker was not a “bubba”, which by the way is “a pejorative to mean a person of low economic status and limited education.” So besides being completely inappropriate it has nothing to do with ER.</p>
<p>@mimk6 , Kaiser can do whatever they want. Apparently. That email business was the last straw for me. One of many. I had friends still there who seemed to be saying they were expected to respond within a certain time frame, even when they are not there. Sutter uses email too. It CAN be done, but it requires a great deal of care. Phones, mail, pagers, voicemail, and face to face is enough to keep up with. </p>
<p>Quote from GP:
“However, I wouldn’t object if you suggested that I am saying the parents may have exacerbated the problems with their head-in-the-sand attitude and possibly their maladaptive interpersonal relationships with ER and to each other.”</p>
<p>So what I don’t understand is how people can on one hand say that ER was suffering from some psychotic break as evidenced by his actions and his writings and on the hand use those writing as a basis for maligning his parents. What does anyone really know about their relationship outside of his manifesto? Have we not established that ER is somewhere between delusional/disturbed and bat crap crazy? If yes, is it really fair to take his account of their relationship and efforts on his behalf as gospel?</p>
<p>I missed that it was speculated he had a break.
My experience has been that people having a break have lost touch with reality to the point that they would not be able to plan or execute violence.
Admittedly
My experience is very limited.</p>
<p>I’m congratulating myself a little for reading MOST of this thread and the entire manifesto. I have a question of the other posters. I keep wondering about his childhood friend. I think his name was James. James ended the friendship in adulthood because, I’m speculating, he found ER too disturbing. It is clear from ER’s writing that he shared a lot of his feeling and fantasies with James. I just wonder if James ever told anyone what ER talked about and fantasized about?
I also wonder, and I know that this was discussed earlier a bit, if it is possible to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder along with Asperger Syndrome? Maybe some of the mental health professionals can weigh in on that.</p>
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<p>The problem is that “looking” at the parents’ role is essentially speculation. Criticizing the parents is, at this stage of the game, criticizing made-up theories of how the parents acted. </p>
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<p>You THINK this? Based on what evidence, what research, what studies? If I’m having “an intense reaction” about what you’re written, it’s because you’re asserting something that is unsubstantiated, both in general and (for the murderer) in this particular instance. </p>
<p>There is research (more recent than the 2004; keyword epigenetics) to support “stress”, including family “dynamics” playing a role in the development of mental illness in children. I can link them later., But I don’t know of any that play a role in this discussion. I can’t think of any that will direct the parent at any stage in this scenario to what will make things better or worse. </p>
<p>“You THINK this? Based on what evidence, what research, what studies?”</p>
<p>I can’t believe you think that family dynamics plays no role in mental illness and children. The research is voluminous. Here is one study and one article on the subject. I could provide you much more but this is probably enough for you to peruse now.</p>
<p><a href=“http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/186/5/442.full”>Migration, family dysfunction and psychotic symptoms in children and adolescents | The British Journal of Psychiatry | Cambridge Core;
<p><a href=“http://psychcentral.com/lib/adult-children-of-dysfunctional-families/00017543”>http://psychcentral.com/lib/adult-children-of-dysfunctional-families/00017543</a></p>
<p>Somehow looking at the parent’s role is speculation according to you but the many posters suggesting the parents did everything they could or were supportive, loving parents is not speculation. Seems contradictory to me.</p>
<p>Goldenpooch…you have asserted things such as ER’s parents “had their head in the sand,” but give no evidence to support that claim. Others have said the parents appear to have intervened to get their son help and tried various things and have kept tabs on him, etc. where evidence to support that claim exists and is NOT speculative.</p>
<p>soozievt, the head in the sand quote refers to the parents financially supporting this kid so he can live in an expensive college town while doing absolutely nothing with his life for 3 years. He didn’t go to school, work, attend a therapeutic program ( refused to take medication) or see a therapist on a regular basis. Most parents would have wanted to know what their mentally ill kid is doing every day for 3 years. In fact, I think we know his condition was getting progressively worse during this period. Yeah, I partially blame the parents for this.</p>
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What are the other high risk practices?</p>