Should daughter pick LAC over Ivy?

Parents Forum
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<p>Just want to give a slight counter opinion to what Consolation stated about women’s colleges and elementary education.</p>

<p>I attended one of the women’s colleges on your daughter’s list 30 years ago, took courses in the Psychology and Education department, and do not recall any one looking down on those of us, who at that time, were pursuing careers in education. I can’t verify what it’s like now…but…if you contact the Career Services offices of the colleges, they should be able to tell you how many students entered education careers (or further certification) when they left the school. It would also be helpful to see if the schools still offer the courses and student teaching opportunities for certification. If they do, you can find out how many students leave the school with the certification. (Although…these days…many school systems are asking for a degree beyond the bachelors…so…some students may not get certified in undergrad school, but do it with their grad degree.)</p>

<p>My choice was a large co-ed school (not as prestigious, at the time, as Brown) and a women’s LAC. Picked the LAC. Not one regret.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind, too, that many students change career plans after they’re in college and get exposed to more academic subjects and more about the world. My college roommate entered planning to be an elementary school teacher. When she graduated, she was headed to Columbia Med School. Since then, she has been on the faculty of a medical school, and a top research doctor in her field.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your answers:-).
Full disclosure, since I was not quite clear in my original post;-): we are also wondering whether she can measure up academically without stressing too much. We were completely surprised by her Brown admission because her stats did not seem to place her at an Ivy level: SAT=2090, only 2 APs, solid GPA but no Honors math/science classes. It also did not come easy: she is very conscientious and had to study pretty hard to achieve those stats. Yes, she has great working habits but, as much as I hate to write this, she is not a “brilliant” kid.
Her ECs also reflected her personality: she did not manage a soup kitchen or started a fund raiser for Darfur, but she tutored special ed children and <em>helped</em> at the soup kitchen (at both places they liked her sense of humor and her reliability).</p>

<p>I am sure that there are brilliant students at LACs and that some Brown students are “stretched” the way she might be, but which is likely to be more supportive? I am really intrigued by the comment that LACs, and especially Smith, are more nurturing. For instance, 1moremom mentions discussing the situation with a dean at Smith. Is this something that could be done at a school like Brown?</p>

<p>And yes, we are taking a full campus tour, and she will be the one making the final decision, and we’ll be as neutral as possible (save for financial considerations). Still, I have gathered so much valuable information on CC, I had to ask the question here!</p>

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<p>Brief anecdote- A friend’s daughter did not apply to a top Lac because she was insecure about the level of scholarship necessary and the workload she would face. She applied instead and was accepted to a very good Lac, most would consider 1 step less selective. She regretted her choice after a few months, felt that she had limited herself.
There will always be someone more brilliant, there will always be someone less brilliant. At college the student can choose their workload and their level of studiousness.(is that a word?) From what I have gleaned by listening and talking about the college experience, getting in is usually the hard part, staying is not.</p>

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<p>"we are also wondering whether she can measure up academically without stressing too much. We were completely surprised by her Brown admission because her stats did not seem to place her at an Ivy level: SAT=2090, only 2 APs, solid GPA but no Honors math/science classes. It also did not come easy: she is very conscientious and had to study pretty hard to achieve those stats. Yes, she has great working habits but, as much as I hate to write this, she is not a “brilliant” kid. "</p>

<p>Brown University’s graduation rate is 94%. I would bet that the majority of the students who don’t graduate from Brown transferred to another top rated college and graduated from that one. Places like Ivies do an excellent job of selecting students who have the smarts and work ethic to be able to graduate from them.</p>

<p>Brown saw something in your D, and based on her acceptance and my own experience at an Ivy, I would trust Brown that your D has what it takes. I remember that there were a couple of students whom I knew in college who had scores that were well below my college’s average. Not only did they graduate from my university, one became a dentist, the other a lawyer and subsequently a judge.</p>

<p>Perhaps your D is exceptionally strong in some areas, but weaker in others. Assuming she majors in what she’s strongest in (which is what most people do), she should not have a problem graduating.</p>

<p>Thus far, too, nothing you’ve indicated about your D indicates she would need to have her hand held through college. A great work ethic is far more important than is natural brilliance. Saying this as the mom of a naturally brilliant older S with 98th percentile scores who flunked out of his second tier safety school because he didn’t bother to go to class or hand in assignments.</p>

<p>“Her ECs also reflected her personality: she did not manage a soup kitchen or started a fund raiser for Darfur, but she tutored special ed children and <em>helped</em> at the soup kitchen (at both places they liked her sense of humor and her reliability).”</p>

<p>Sounds like a wonderful young woman who probably was doing an excellent job pursuing things she’s naturally interested in. Tutoring special ed kids can be as impressive as the other types of ECs you mentioned. </p>

<p>My belief is that you’re probably underestimating your D and her potential.</p>

<p>However, she has several wonderful college options, and I don’t think she would go wrong by picking any of them.</p>

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<p>If Brown were not part of the Ivy League would she pick it?
If she only prefers it because it is Ivy, then given her interests and style it is probably not going to be a fabulous decision.
If she prefers it because it is larger, likely a bigger challenge on some levels, coed, maybe a bit more eclectic (who knows) then why not. She probably has to be able to tolerate a bit of chaos, or peers who like a bit of chaos.
The 3 kids I know best, all internationals, are all strong personalities, ‘take it on’ kind of kids. But, that doesn’t mean that all the students are. Two have big social lives,the other not so much. </p>

<p>She sounds genuine and solid. Congratulations!</p>

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<p>What marvelous choices, and I am relieved to hear that she will make the final decision, and get to visit too. Mine put Brown in the mix after an early acceptance to another strong school of about the same size…she hadn’t realized she had a shot at first. She also had a few Lac’s in the mix, including Wellesley. I do think that kids are so overloaded at application time that it is nice to still have a mix to focus on and learn more in depth about. And they are changing as a Senior and having a few more months to figure out what is important to them.</p>

<p>That said, she has been loving Brown and is so glad she chose it. By decision time, she realized that she wanted a bigger school experience since she came from a small HS. I think first year was a little stressful, I find it is for most kids, making new friends and adjusting to the work.</p>

<p>Brown is not just ‘an ivy’. It is an Ivy known for it’s strong undergrad focus. Professors are accessible. There are so many resources available. The are so many wonderful things they do for the students. One thing is that if you are supposed to do federal work study, they give you a grant for it the first year so you don’t have the pressure of a job, and can get more involved in student life.</p>

<p>Brown is a research university with a small grad student population so it is easy to join a professors research, opportunities abound for undergrad research and you can get funding too.</p>

<p>Work can be challenging at Brown, esp in math/sciences and upper division, but there are some nice cushions. My daugter didn’t pass her multivar calculus the first semester and it is just removed from the transcript. She passed it next semester (and became a math/cs major.) She has also used the pass fail option before, mostly for languages, perhaps for a fiction writing workshop. Brown does this becasue they promote interdisciplinary work and want you not to let gpa issues stop you from trying something out of your comfort zone.</p>

<p>And after a semester abroad and some travel, she really is one of those worldy people and will be off to enter a PhD program this fall. It really was a special experience. I’m sure the other schools will all have their special features.</p>

<p>Brown isn’t huge by any means, but it is a lot bigger than an LAC. It does have an intimacy because of the location on College Hill separates it from the rest of Providence.</p>

<p>I suggest for more information, you should go to the Brown forum and read Modest Melody’s essay about the university-college structure at Brown. It is informative and he had been a student rep on a cirriculum review committee.</p>

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<p>2090 SAT is well in normal range for Brown (or Wellesley).</p>

<p>I think it is ridiculous to think there is a ‘prestige’ factor for Brown over Wellesley or even Smith.</p>

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<p>Grateful, my son had a wonderful experience at a small isolated LAC – academically and socially which has continued to give back after graduation in career placement and graduate school admissions. </p>

<p>My son applied and was accepted ED so he technically never had to choose an LAC over an Ivy. In retrospect Williams was a perfect fit for him and he is eternally grateful that he took that path instead of pursuing opportunities at the larger universities that interested him, Brown and Yale.</p>

<p>Having said that it seems to me that the pivotal choice that your daughter is facing is not just between a small LAC and medium sized university but also between all-women’s and coed. </p>

<p>I note that you say that " the “all women” feature does not seem to be a major decision factor for her", but it IS a significant point of differentiation between Brown and the others and it will greatly impact her experience: positively or negatively, only she could say.</p>

<p>To me the similarities between Brown and Wellesley or Brown and Smith are great (I’d put MHC in a separate category because of its more remote location) – except for the gender difference. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t worry about the workload and stress factor. If Brown (or Wellesley for that matter) accepted her they’ll want to keep her and will help her succeed.</p>

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<p>This is truly an amazing forum! </p>

<p>One of the things that you have all helped me realize is that we can really leave the decision up to her: if she does pick the more challenging one (which might be either Brown or Wellesley) she can probably manage whatever obstacles she faces with support from the school.</p>

<p>You have also added several criteria to the list we thought she could keep in mind: momrath is right, the “all women” feature may need to be revisited:-) and, even knowing that she might change her mind later, she should have a serious look at the education departments in each school.</p>

<p>To answer anitaw and sorghum, in D’s mind, the Brown attraction is far from being solely tied to Ivy prestige: we know several people who teach there or who have recently studied there, and she has always heard great things about the school. Still, her initial thinking was that it was probably too large, too urban and too “intellectual” (for lack of a better word), for her. That is why she applied to the 3 women colleges among others. (She is also waitlisted at Vassar and Wesleyan, but I am trying to stay focused here;-)). As I wrote yesterday, she ended up applying at Brown because it had always been in the background of her life and it was mostly a way to ensure that she would not regret <em>not applying</em> later.</p>

<p>OK, back to scheduling time off work for campus visits now;-)</p>

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<p>I think of Smith as being very intellectual, even more so than is Brown. That’s my impression based on having visited both, and knowing alum of both. </p>

<p>If your D can visit now all of the ones she’s considering, that may help her decide.</p>

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<p>Congratulations on all your daughter’s wonderful acceptances. I think if she has the chance to revisit the schools, the answer will become clearer. FWIW, my son wanted to attend Brown and was not accepted. He was accepted at Vassar, attended and is very happy he ended up there instead. The smaller school was probably a better fit for him because he was somewhat reserved and the LAC environment made it harder for him to fade into the woodwork. He had several leadership opportunities, did research and played D3 sports as a walk on. That is not to say wonderful things would not have happened had he gone to a school like Brown, but there is something unique about a LAC environment.</p>

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<p>isn’t college all about seeking opportunities to grow?</p>

<p>it shouldn’t be about being comfortable all the time. the only way you can grow is by pushing yourself beyond your comfort zones.</p>

<p>there may be many plausible reasons to choose a LAC over an ivy, but shyness shouldn’t be one of them in my opinion</p>

<p>it’s also important that you’re talking about brown – the small, friendly, relatively laid-back and informal ivy, not some huge state school.</p>

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<p>dcircle,</p>

<p>Even though Brown may seem laid back, it’s a tough school to get into and gets top 3% students. My DS who was in top 5%, with 2200 SATs, >770 in chem, Bio, Physics, and calc SAT IIs, 5s on 3 APs, medical research in Immunology + EMT license, and hundreds of hours of volunteering was rejected by Brown. It’s not an easy school in terms of competition IMO.</p>

<p>He got a full ride in 7 year BS/MD program in our “public Ivy”, TCNJ. He is happy there, maintaining a 4.0… but I doubt he will ever forget being rejected by Ivys.</p>

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<p>^^^ Both good points by Dcircle and Pharmagal. But the main point here is that the staff in the Brown Office of Admissions are the world’s experts on what types of students prosper and thrive at Brown. They turned down almost 9 out of 10 superstars who applied this year, but accepted the OP’s daughter. And they’re pretty good at making this call - according to Princeton Review’s survey of students, they have the student assessment of campus quality of life ranked the second highest in the country.</p>

<p>There are certainly valid reasons for choosing one of the other schools over Brown. But I’d never make that call on the assumption that my student wouldn’t be up to it. The people who do this for a living, year in and year out with a 96% success rate, have told her loud and clear: “We’re convinced you’re up to it.”</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that someone (at Harvard perhaps?) said that anyone with 600+ on the verbal and math sections would probably be perfectly capable of doing the work there. The schools do occasionally surprise us by taking students who aren’t the obvious candidates, but they do always have a reason, even if we mortals don’t know what it is.</p>

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<p>Its not like Wellesley and Smith are completely unjustifiable choices over Brown. But it’s not like Brown is Ohio State or Arizona State teeming with tens of thousands. She needs to visit Brown, it is pretty chilled out.</p>

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<p>According to my niece who graduated from Brown recently, it is a school that is, from her own words, “hard to get in, easy to get out”. She found classes challenging but not terribly difficult. She was an economics major.</p>

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<p>I had the same concerns about one of my kids, who has absolutely loved Brown. The culture there seems a lot different from, say, Harvard. I would encourage your daughter to attend whatever events are offered for admitted students at all the schools she got into. Also, read course catalogs and visit the college bookstore to see what the course readings involve.</p>

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<p>Pharmgal–free ride in the 7 year medical program at TCNJ? Dang, I’m impressed!!!</p>

<p>I do think shyness is a perfectly legitimate reason to pick one college over another. People grow in different ways. Choosing an environment that suits your personality is a great idea. If she doesn’t like Brown, why go there? My child looked at it and couldn’t stand it, even though it is obviously an excellent school. Smith, Mount Holyoke, etc., are great colleges. And besides, some women really thrive in a women’s school. That factor alone might help her find her voice in a new way. That is what those schools are specifically designed to do. Plus, they’re fabulously prestigious as well!</p>