<p>Yes, I accept it because it's reality. This is not a socialist country, the system you speak of does exist in some countries, but it doesn't here. College is a consumer product. MANY people can't afford all colleges. That's why state run schools exist!!</p>
<p>Where did you get the idea that if you worked hard you could go anywhere you want? If you work hard during your career will you be able to afford any house you want?</p>
<p>I think this is an important thing to understand. The finances should be figured out before the list is made. The good part about working hard and doing well is there is considerable merit money out there. My financial backup was a top U very generous with merit.</p>
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Only the wealthy are able to afford a lot of things.
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<p>Hey, if places like Harvard stated that they were in business to make money and paid taxes like everyone else and didn't piously claim to be need blind, I would have much less of a problem with all of this nonsense.</p>
<p>twosonmom -- yep -- that $21,330 is the figure that is allocated for all living expenses (and my guess is that nothing is allocated for taxes, since if you are making that kind of money you don't pay income tax).</p>
<p>I was pretty taken aback by that figure, also. I would like to meet some government officials who live on that income. </p>
<p>I think that the financial aid methodology is deficient in two areas -- no cost of living adjustment and the living allowance is too low. I can see where someone could make an argument that choosing to live in New Jersey is a choice -- your parents could just as well choose to live in a trailer park in Mississippi -- but we can't all live in that trailer park before it also costs a mint. People do live in all different areas and the cost does vary.</p>
<p>It's all about life choices. The middle class and the lower end of the upper middle class have hard choices to make. But if they want their kids to go ivy they need to be prepared to save over time or to borrow. It amazes me that this seems to come as a shock to so many a couple of months prior to acceptance letters. There are articles about this in the press all the time.</p>
<p>"People get stuck in an affluent bubble-- where most of their friends and neighbors are high income earners, and they begin to feel like they're just average income earners."
HAHAHA.... affluent bubble.... we don't make 150K, but we make pretty good money, and you would probably call it "affluent", but boy, if affluent is not having taken a vacation in 5 years, driving used cars (one with over 120K miles one it) living in a nice, but somewhat average home then I really am living that affluent live style!! Living in the northeast, after paying taxes, oil bills, fees for the kids to play sports at school, and health insurance bills there is not a whole lot of "champange wishes and caviar dreams"
I consider us very lucky to have what we do, but when it comes to paying for college, the fact is, those who have less and those who have much more than us will do ok.
And for all those people who keep talking about State Universities... yes they are a bargain COMPARED to private schools, but check out some of the tuitions... U or Vermont, UNH and some others are not "cheap", and not all students are going to qualify for merit scholarships.
I think we can all agree that college is EXPENSIVE, you need to plan and work hard, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a discussion on how to make college more affordable for EVERYONE. We spend BILLIONS of dollars overseas helping rebuild other countries,( just using that as an example- do not want to get into a discussion of the war in Iraq!) how about spending money here to provide low interest loans for ALL college kids!</p>
<p>The honors program at a flagship state university is really a great option. Typically the classes are small. The profs are amoung the best and most enthusiastic in the university. The students are bright kids, typically caught in the same financial situation as you are. Some such programs even offer special housing for honors students. I've talked to lots of people who have seen the insides of both expensive private schools and major state universities and they all agree that a great education is available at state institutions for those wiling to seek it out. Two bits of advice. First, as the saying goes success comes to he who "can keep his head when all about are losing theirs," remember what you are there for. Second, try to live on campus, if you can, it's a big part of the experience and worth the cost.</p>
<p>I'm sorry. This just drives me nuts. Those who have less will. not. be. okay. You really can't know anyone who is low income and think that. Tell that to my students who work 40 hours a week, contributing to their household, and then are told their income is too high. Tell that to the students I know coming out of foster homes and graduating with 40K debt. Tell that to kids in tears because they can't afford to buy the books for their courses. I could go on and on. </p>
<p>They are not okay. They will not "do okay." They will struggle for every credit they get, and many will drop out over financial issues (never mind the under-preparedness they bring from the schools they go to.) And it's just wearying to hear that tired mantra over and over.</p>
<p>I hear ya Garland. I also live in NJ and sure it's expensive, but if it's so great to be low income, maybe people should quit their jobs and try on the other shoe. I'd much rather be faced with the problem of trying to reduce my spending than having to figure out how I'm going to pay the rent each month.</p>
<p>The schools that say they are "need blind" say that they are need blind in the context of admissions. Not financial aid. It's not a financial aid term at all.</p>
<p>NO ONE is saying it is great to be low income, but the fact is we are not low income, and my son will be lucky to to graduate with just 40K of debt. However, if you are bright enough to get into Harvard and your income is less than 40K a year, you go tuition free, granted that is just Harvard, but Harvard starts a lot of trends in the Ivies. I teach at a community college and we have a lot of kids who transfer to 4 year colleges, and most of them go (close to) tuition free, BUT, they have to do some research find the scholarships and grants, but they are out there, So if you are very bright and low income and do some homework there will be opportunities for you to get a great college education.</p>
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HAHAHA.... affluent bubble.... we don't make 150K, but we make pretty good money, and you would probably call it "affluent", but boy, if affluent is not having taken a vacation in 5 years, driving used cars (one with over 120K miles one it) living in a nice, but somewhat average home then I really am living that affluent live style!!
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<p>I'm totally with you. I do ok, but I haven't taken a vacation that involved getting on a plane since 1997. I just replaced my car after 6 1/2 years and my wife's after 8 years. My wife and I go out to dinner maybe 10 times a year to moderately-priced restaurants. I believe that right now my EFC would be about 50k or $60k per year. Realistically, I don't think I could come up with that kind of money.</p>
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Living in the northeast, after paying taxes, oil bills, fees for the kids to play sports at school, and health insurance bills there is not a whole lot of "champange wishes and caviar dreams"
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<p>I agree. When you apply for a loan, the bank asks about income AND expenses. I went through an EFC calculation on one of the web sites, and it didn't ask anything about expenses. That doesn't seem right to me.</p>
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The schools that say they are "need blind" say that they are need blind in the context of admissions. Not financial aid. It's not a financial aid term at all.
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<p>You are right. However, I note that under Justice Department antitrust settlement required colleges to "[a]gree to provide enough financial aid to meet the full, proven need of a student."</p>
<p>It seems to me that -- at least in spirit -- colleges don't really meet that standard with respect to middle class admitees.</p>
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I'm sorry. This just drives me nuts. Those who have less will. not. be. okay.
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<p>That may be true, but I do know that my college announced that if your family income is under $45k, you don't pay any tuition. If things keep going the way they are going, it may actually make financial sense in the future to quit one's high paying job and flip burgers for a few years while the kids are in college.</p>
<p>In any event, it does seem like a lucky few poor folks get "full rides." Perhaps this is a token effort and there are plenty of poor people getting screwed right along with the middle class? In any event, if your parents refuse to help you, it seems like you are much better off being from a poor family than a rich one.</p>
<p>Yeah, some middle class kids will have 40K debt. That is not the same thing as a kid from a foster home with NO family resources of any kind, graduating with that. A kid who took maybe 6 year to get through school, who started out in remedial classes, maybe had to take a few over, maybe graduated with a 2.5 GPA. With no family to fall back on. No home base. And limited job realities when he goes to look for a job.</p>
<p>Never mind. If you can't see how different it is, than keep assuming that it's all about the handful of low income kids at Harvard. Right--that's the central story here.</p>
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That may be true, but I do know that my college announced that if your family income is under $45k, you don't pay any tuition.
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<p>At about three schools in this country. Hoorah. There are millions of low income students. They're not all at Harvard. Believe it or not. Or whatever your school is.</p>
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They're not all at Harvard. Believe it or not. Or whatever your school is.
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<p>I believe it. Like I said before, I'm willing to concede that a lot of poor people get screwed right along with the middle class.</p>
<p>But it does appear that at least some poor people end up a lot better off than if they were middle class, at least as far as college tuition goes. Which makes it a lot harder to swallow the "if you can't afford it, you can't afford it" line.</p>
<p>Garland..... Like I said in an earlier post, I teach at a community college, I work in the developmental ed department, MANY of my students go on to 4 year schools (some private, some public ) and I can assure you the majority of them are NOT paying much in tuition. And why is the 40K debt of a college graduate who comes from a low income family any different from the 40K debt from the college graduate who comes from a middle class family. When my son graduates from college he is on his own, we have other children that will be in school that we will be trying to help just as we did him. So, yes, he will have our support as a family, but financially we will not be able to give him much help. So, you will need to explain how the 40K debt of two college grads is different.</p>
<p>For one, on the day your son graduates, he still has a home to go home to.</p>
<p>Your kid might get a few more months on your insurance.</p>
<p>Your kid probably went to a better high school, probably had more support from home while in college, probably graduated with a better GPA.</p>
<p>It's two different worlds; I could spend all night trying to explain, but I feel that many people here are mired in that all-too-common "my situation is worse" mentality, and everything i say will be met by more outraged argument.</p>
<p>So, never mind. You're right; it's no worse to be poor. Y'all win.</p>
<p>garland, no one is saying the poor aren't deserving. we are just saying that those who aren't shouldn't be spat on if they dare say they should get some help (whether from the govt or other sources) as well.
It's not a competition to see who's situation is worse. it's an open forum to discuss how to make the best of all situations and possibly share a little sympathy on the challenges, perhaps greater for some than others, that are faced in paying for college.
no one here is outraged but you.
go be mad on behalf of the poor, but your beef is not with middle/uppper middle class. class warfare never has good results.
the problem of poverty can't be blamed on one single cause. and just because some are more disadvantaged than others at birth doesn't mean that all aren't created equal and the circumstances of birth matter less as children became more independent. in addition, just because some people are in terrible shape doesnt mean others who have more don't have any problems or shouldn't seek to voice their concerns and look for ways to solve them.</p>
<p>Passionflower, I know this thread started with your post, but it's gone beyond it now. YOu may not be saying that the "poor aren't diserving" (though that's pretty loaded terminology), but many posters have said things along the lines of, well, it's often better to be poor, or, both (poor and middle class, even upper middle class) are equally bad.</p>
<p>I believe that those attitudes show a poor understanding of what lower income families experience. Many here differ. It's not "spitting" on them to vigorously disagree, but, as I conceded above, I am not going to change any minds here. that is clear.</p>
<p>but the fact is we are not low income, and my son will be lucky to to graduate with just 40K of debt.</p>
<p>I would expect someone who doesn't have parental support to attend college, to perhaps graduate with that much debt.</p>
<p>For someone whose parents have planned for them to attend college, by saving, taking out their own loans and from income, as well as encouraging their child to work summers and during the school year to contribute to their expenses- not to mention seeking out affordable schools whether that means getting a merit scholarship from a private school, or attending community college for a couple years to reduce costs- then I wouldn't expect that student to be burdened with a heavier debt load than is advisable for most, for their undergrad education</p>