<p>My son is an OOS Freshman at UAlabama with a good merit scholarship. Academically he is doing well there. He has gotten very involved, loves the school (he wasn't sure he would) however , now thinks he wants to major in Neuroscience and they don't offer anything in Neuroscience classes or research. He did work in a lab 1st semester and has looked through all the ongoing research projects on campus. He is gifted in science and is driven to learn and currently thinks he wants to get a PhD. He is currently taking Cell Bio, which led him to consider Neuroscience. He has spent his entire spring break looking for schools that he could transfer to. Would it be wise to transfer to another school with a neuroscience major and research opportunities or could he just wait until grad school? His desire to pursue Neuroscience seems to be outweighing his social connections at the moment. But we also have to consider costs and the lack of scholarship money for transfers may make this too difficult.</p>
<p>My DD is thinking about what is sometimes called PyschoBiology or BioPsychology and i even think Neuroscience. So look at other schools that have Neuroscience degrees and see what classes they would take. Usually they are combinations of Biochem and Psychology. Does UA have those? I’ll bet they have a make your own major program. so if he can suggest what courses go with that I will bet he could stay at UA.
As far as research, he may have to dig deeper. Maybe it is not titled neuroscience, but it may be in the biology or psychology depts. He should talk to his advisor to get an idea of who to talk to.</p>
<p>The lack of courses is a concern, the degree title not at all. Neuroscience is quite specialized, and really should be a graduate program and not an undergrad program. I know schools have the major, but I see it as largely a gimmick. There are plenty of opportunities in grad school to get the appropriate training and coursework. It is far more important that he gets an excellent background and understanding of the core areas related to neuroscience:
Cell/developmental biology
Biochemistry (yes this is very important for this discipline)
Physiology/anatomy
Molecular biology</p>
<p>Really, you get so specialized in grad school, if you are weak (or lacking) in the core areas you won’t have an opportunity to learn these after undergrad.
The fact is we want well-rounded students capable of thinking critically and who have done well in the quantitative sciences (chem, phys, biochem) in our life sceince graduate programs. Would it be nice if they had a good number of specialized courses? Sure. I’d take a well rounded student over one that over-specialized as an undergraduate in heartbeat. </p>
<p>Transferring is a big step. I advise him to try to fit within his environment. He’s a freshman. He might not be that interested in neuroscience after taking another course in another area.</p>
<p>There are options to get addition exposure to neuroscience. First, he should come up with a plan to obtain summer research experiences in that area near home or at another university. He could try now, but it’s already too late to get a position this summer. He should think next summer. Even at the university he may have the option of designing an independent course of study in that area (not talking lab work).</p>
<p>In his junior/senior year he can look for graduate level courses in this area. Most universities allow upper classmen to take graduate-level courses. Strong students in my department do and do well.</p>
<p>I agree with other posters. NS is on a continuum from more psych/bio to cognitive science to computational science. Computer clourses and math are valuable for the latter. </p>
<p>I’d encourage son to talk to adviser or profs in the field, and choose courses that interest him and would fit with a NS major. </p>
<p>Thank you all for your response. I will have him look into the research options in the psych dept as well. </p>
<p>luvthej - I appreciate your viewpoint! Yes, he can get a very solid overall foundation in biochem, chem physics…where he is. He started out as a biochem major, then changed to microbio. And until now we thought he was happy. I was a transfer student in college so I know its a big decision. I have stressed how difficult it is to make connections as a transfer. My concern is that he says his classes aren’t very challenging, Even his 300 level cellbio. He has observed some other graduate level classes with a friend as well. My son thrives when challenged. If the classes aren’t a challenge and he doesn’t have interesting lab work to get excited about I am worried that he will lose interest. If the course work isn’t challenging will he be fully prepared for grad school? We have discussed the benefit of being that outstanding student at the top of his class when he is applying to grad schools but he seems more interested in learning and being challenged than class rank. Which is good i suppose.
Although I do see Neuro being a good fit for him, (he has been talking about the brain since he was 3). I also wouldn’t be surprised if his interests evolve as he learns. I told him if he transfers the school he goes to must have multiple programs that are an option for him. I’m simply trying to be supportive and help him make the best decision. It would be difficult to see him leave what he has cultivated at UA.</p>
<p>As for research, he did look for a summer position elsewhere, but he did not meet the age and coursework requirements for the projects that he found. (That was before his interest in neuro.) So he has decided to wait until next year to secure a summer research position. He has another job lined up for this summer. </p>
<p>" I have stressed how difficult it is to make connections as a transfer."
You are correct. this is especially true in science because getting a research position is critical. PIs (lab heads) would want to see the student do well in the classes at their institution before considering them for positions in their labs. if he transfers as a sophomore, he might not be looked at until his junior year. Problem is many labs don’t like to bring in upperclassmen. If they do, his time to do research is less before he graduates.
I think he should make the most of his current environment. I hate to say this, and psych departments have their own strengths, but the research in these departments may not be molecular/cellular enough. If he had an initial interest in Biochem, chances are he’s more interested in molecular processes.</p>
<p>You bring up the other side of choosing the money/free ride at a lesser institution. High achieving students may not feel challenged or may not find all the opportunities that they’d like. These schools dangle these carrots to improve their pool. They don’t do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
It doesn’t always have to end this way, it just might. My D choose a free ride at my university over top #5-15 schools. But it is considered better than UA and, of course, I had a good idea of what is and is not here for her. She’s doing great, is in a lab she loves as a freshman and the money saved will allow her to spend summers at other research institutions. </p>
<p>oh, and your are correct, there is something to be said for standing out. The letters he will receive could be stronger than if he’s average elsewhere. Great letters from Alabama would enhance a grad school application more so than average/supportive letters from let’s say, U. Michigan or U.Va </p>
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<p>I have to say I disagree, at least partly. Someone interested in neuroscience should take first all the core subjects in biology, many of which you have listed. I agree with you there. However, grad school doesn’t do a good job in terms of coursework. Pretty much, the point of grad school is to do research–you only have minimal time for coursework. You should take some neuroscience classes as well during undergrad; whether it’s a major or not, it’s not really important.</p>
<p>And you will not get into a good neuroscience grad school without neuroscience-specific <em>research</em>training. And you may have no idea if you even like neuroscience without some classes and/or research in the area.</p>
<p>You are prepared for many types of biological research by a simple biology major plus training in a molecular biology/cell biology lab. But neuroscience is very different. </p>
<p>Yes, it is worth considering transferring. Maybe you could take a summer class in neuroscience, though. There is no sense in transferring if you find you don’t even like neuroscience.</p>
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<p>I don’t agree with this. If you had an excellent GPA from a different university and transferred to a new school, it should not be a problem getting an undergraduate research position.</p>
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<p>Grad school admissions is not the same as med school admissions. He is better off being challenged and getting say 3.4/4.0 and going to a school where the professor’s recommendations have weight than going to a school where he is the top student and the professors don’t have as much pull. Recs mean everything in grad school admission. And it’s not just the importance of the professor writing the rec. It’s better if the people reading it recognize the name. So if a big shot in molecular biology writes the rec and a neuroscientist reads it, it’s not as influential as if it were written by a neuroscientist who they probably have met at a conference and know their reputation.</p>
<p>colegealum, This young man is a freshman, just feeling his oats. My suggestion is to look at the integrated NS programs at Caltech, Emory, MIT, UMiami, Yale (for example), and see what classes they include in their major, whether it be called NS or Cognitive & Brain Science. </p>
<p>Then apply for a SURF at Caltech for summer program or a similar program at 1 of the other colleges I mentioned. Down the line, he can attend conferences and network. </p>
<p>Yeah, that’s a good point. I suppose he could do research during the summer at a school with neuroscience research; they do have programs set up for this.</p>
<p>About the value of knowing people at conferences, what I meant was it’s valuable if the professor writing the recommendation knows personally the professors who end up reading it at the school the student is applying, not that the student should have met professors at conferences.</p>
<p>Wow thank you both for the advice. As to becoming a “lab head” in a new school. Dear S in no stranger to office hours and would seek out opportunity. He probably got his first lab assignment because the poor professor was tired of seeing him in his office. </p>
<p>You are all correct on so many levels!
Yes, this is a kid feeling his oats. But at the same time I know he has great potential. I would not say that med school or a MD/PHD have been completely ruled out either. So that makes some of your comments confusing. Here is a little history…
He fell in love with UMiami and got waitlisted. He almost wanted to sit out a semester and try for UMaimi in the spring. He just didn’t love his other choices, (UMD,UDel, UF) so he followed the money and UA has a great reputation for Med School acceptances. Which was his goal at the time.
He had a nagging undiagnosed medial issue his entire senior year so the college app/decision process was a struggle at best. And his grades may have actually gone down during his senior year so reapplying in the spring didn’t look like a great option.
Anyway he feels better is healing and has a different perspective and outlook now. He is craving knowledge again.</p>
<p>My son seems to think there is a need to be at a school with a neuroscience program to progress in the field. However, does transferring make getting into a med school more difficult?
I’m not sure where he could take a summer course. Can you go to another school and just take a summer class? Not sure there is anything in our home town other than at a medical school. </p>
<p>When he started with all this questioning, he was suggesting taking a semester to a year off. That seems really scary to me. Maybe I am wrong, but I really don’t think that is the best plan. Which I think he understands now after all the research he has done looking into other programs. Not to mention he would probably lose the scholarship he has at UA. Almost forgot, he will most likely want to be in the northeast for grad school so would being there for undergrad make a difference?</p>
<p>So here we are considering a transfer before all the deadlines pass. </p>
<p>Thank you all for the support. It truly does help!</p>
<p>“the importance of the professor writing the rec. It’s better if the people reading it recognize the name. So if a big shot in molecular biology writes the rec and a neuroscientist reads it, it’s not as influential as if it were written by a neuroscientist who they probably have met at a conference and know their reputation.”</p>
<p>Yes, knowing the person makes a difference. I agree. However, the times this occurs is VERY few and far in between. Firstly, graduate applications are read by 2, 3 may be 4 professors, who may be outside of that area. Of the 1000+ applications i read over 6 years on the committee, I identified the referees may be 10 times. My knowledge of them made a positive impact may be 3 times. </p>
<p>“If you had an excellent GPA from a different university and transferred to a new school, it should not be a problem getting an undergraduate research position.” </p>
<p>This statement does not jive with my experiences and knowledge f what occurs at a research university. There are more excellent students wanting positions than those available. Who wouldn’t favor someone who excelled in classes that you are familiar with, versus a transfer student from a lesser university (I think one would at least want to “trade up”) with classes you know nothing about.</p>
<p>Not wanting to pick a fight. I can only provide my own perspective as someone who makes these decisions each year. </p>
<p>OP, Keep checking in. My son did not major in NS, but still did great on grad school acceptances. What is important is to take the right courses. For the record, he shifted from the bio stuff to computational science.It takes years and exposure to various labs to find the right note. When you start grad school, you usually rotate between 4 labs, and then settle with a particular P.I. and join his/her lab the 2nd year. </p>
<p>Well, they could always take a biology or neuroscience class over the summer at a respected university like this Harvard summer school class: <a href=“http://archive.summer.harvard.edu/courses/32375.jsp”>http://archive.summer.harvard.edu/courses/32375.jsp</a> . A PI at a university should respect that grade.</p>
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<p>Well, my experiences are based pretty exclusively on top 10 universities both in terms of where I was applying from and where I was applying to. And at these places (1) the profs do tend to know each other, and (2) getting a research position is not hard at all. And even though profs in a different subfield may not know the prof who wrote the recommendation, the decision tends to be made based on whether the prof who has similar research would want you. In a personal statement on the application, I said that I would want to work in the lab of x or y, and I chose those names because their research was similar. When I applied to grad school, everyone knew the guy I worked for, and it made a huge difference I think.</p>
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<p>The computational end of neuroscience is a completely different animal, so I didn’t comment on that. For that field, a math major or comp sci major might be very attractive to grad schools. </p>
<p>Check out the University of Pittsburgh</p>
<p>I want to thank everyone for your comments. This was not the spring break I was expecting! Your posts were very helpful, and helped confirm that my son is asking the right questions and considering the risks involved with transferring.(which helped me feel a little more sane, so thank you!). Ultimately, he says he needs more of a challenge, regardless of the major. I feel that my son has explored every possibility at his school, even the build your own major program. But the dean was concerned about getting the research he needs. I am not saying that where he is now is a poor program, it’s just not a good fit for him. He did visit some friends at 2 other schools and they seem to be learning on a different level. So he will be applying to a few schools now and we will see what happens. Yes, University of Pittsburgh is on the list. Neither of us can remember why he did not apply last year…it was on the list then too. Now he just wants to make the right decision not rush into a decision. Thank you all again!</p>