Should I have offered more money?

Parents Forum
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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Very true.</p>

<p>Your D doesn’t have to go to an ivy to get into med school. Frankly, as an “avg student” at an ivy, she might not end up with the best GPA because all of her pre-med pre-req classmates will all be gunning for the limited number of As that are awarded in those weeder classes. </p>

<p>You have other college bound children in your family. If you pay $60k per year for this child, will you do it for the others? If you say, well, they’re not as high-achieving so I won’t spend as much on them, then that could be creating another problem. If the other children are doing the best that they can, but aren’t tippy top, I don’t think that’s a reason to spend less on them. </p>

<p>I also don’t like the fact that if you spend $60k per year on this one child then family finances will be very tough at home with other children to support. How will that tight budget affect their lives? Will you have to say “no” to various activities because the money is going to Child #1’s college? How fair will that be if Child #1 got to do those activities when she was in high school?</p>

<p>I think that you’re fretting for no good reason. Your D wants to go to med school. Any good school can prepare her for that. At a state flagship or good private with merit, she’ll be one of the top students pulling the A’s and getting the great Letters of Recommendations. She’ll be the one whose selected for the great research opps.</p>

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<p>My grad school roommate graduated from Harvard College. Her parents were school teachers, and she received excellent financial aid. Very middle class. Note that she was very disappointed in the actual Ivy experience, and complained about snobby kids and professors, feeling very much “fish out of water”, and loneliness. Through her, and during my own Ivy grad school experience, I met plenty of middle-class Ivy grads with same opinion. A close friend graduated from Mount Holyoke, and had similar complaint. These were/are all well-balanced adults with well-considered opinions. I think it’s important to read up on the social context of Ivy schools too.</p>

<p>Reality is that a high-quality education and super college experience can be obtained from many colleges and universities, and that COA price tag isn’t necessarily a distinguishing characteristic of overall positive experience. Plenty of “Tier 1.5” schools offer same experience, opportunity, and facilities. Read up on the Harvard alumni “success” reports, and you’ll find that Harvard grads’ typical “success” doesn’t outstrip other smart students who attended non-Ivy Tier 2-type colleges. Strip out the hedge fund guys, and it’s readily apparent.</p>

<p>We’re in a similar situation of of “full pay” for a Tier 1.5 college. Two wage-earner household. On paper, we look wealthy, but in reality the tuition bite comes out of non 401K “retirement savings”. Both jobs are in industries that have volatile employment conditions, though we’ve never been laid-off. Health issue concerns too. Neither parent has a pension (only SS and 401K savings) and we live relatively modestly in an expensive urban area where home prices dictate education quality, residential attractiveness, and demographically-defined upper-middle-class safety/security. No exuberant spending here. BUT - our big Midwest state schools are a poor fit for our college student, who does need the services, professor contact, and small classes offered by LACs to successful complete college. So we’ve earmarked those savings for those college bills.</p>

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<p>Went to state flagship… Friends there went to Ivy grad schools. Relax, your D will be fine. You have given her the tools to be successful in college. It is up to her to make the rest happen, and it sounds like she will do so. Let me add this- she may have all the stats and ECs in the world, but so do the othe ‘top college’ applicants. Many, many are still turned down. Having the money or access to financial aid, in the end, may not have been an issue anyway. I’m not trying to be rude, just pointing out that the Ivies were not a given and thereby assuage some of your guilt. My D is happily applying to two state flagships and people are asking why no HPYS type schools. Answer is, they don’t match what she’s looking for, and I don’t think her education will be inferior because she doesn’t want to try for an Ivy. Please don’t beat yourself up here.</p>

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<p>Her “Thanks a Million” won’t in any way be jokingly said when you can help her pay for med school… ;)</p>

<p>Kids who graduate from our high school each year might wistfully wish for another school, but almost all end up loving where they go and tell me in hindsight they wouldn’t have picked another option. The only ones who deviate from that are those who end up with a bit of debt or those who didn’t choose carefully for fit (urban, rural, etc). There are plenty of good schools out there.</p>

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<p>jnm123–that may or may not be true. Our experience says otherwise. Our kids applied to several 40K+ schools and due to merit awards those schools are VERY affordable, more so then lesser cost schools. Obviously it depends on the school but don’t discount schools because of the initial pricetag. Until you get your full award letter in the spring, you may have just priced yourself out of any school. Just go into the process knowing that you can spend X number of dollars and if they don’t come up with the funds, that school is off the list.</p>

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<p>With better financial planning you could have managed your EFC and qualified for financial aid at an Ivy, or Ivy-like school, especially given their high threshold for family income and no loan policies. One sure way to not have the Ivy option is to not apply. Sounds like you really messed up. Now to add insult to injury you will likely pay higher taxes on your earnings above $250k. She will get by, and probably do very well, but you will live the rest of your life wondering…“what if…”</p>

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<p>We have made the same decision in our family. Our EFC is, in our opinion, simply too much to spend for a Bachelor’s degree. And we have 3 more teenagers who will be heading to college over the next 4 years. The elite schools that offer no merit aid are off the list…their loss IMO (love my daughter! and I think they would too!). I was so happy to find out early (from a CC poster) how to use the common data sets to quickly determine which schools offered merit aid to a good percentage of non-need students, and that info became part of our college comparison spreadsheet. We know that our daughter will do well wherever she goes. And luckily for us this has been made easier because she is not influenced by prestige or elite-envy. There are a couple of schools she would have liked to apply to (and would probably be a good fit at), but she realizes that there are plenty of schools where she can be challenged and get a great education, with a much lower price tag. She’s going to have some great choices, WITH merit aid that she has worked hard to earn.</p>

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<p>*With better financial planning you could have managed your EFC and qualified for financial aid at an Ivy, or Ivy-like school, especially given their high threshold for family income and no loan policies. One sure way to not have the Ivy option is to not apply. Sounds like you really messed up. Now to add insult to injury you will likely pay higher taxes on your earnings above $250k. She will get by, and probably do very well, but you will live the rest of your life wondering…“what if…”
*</p>

<p>???</p>

<p>Family contribution is based largely on income. How could he have managed that better?</p>

<p>Also, there are limits as to how much can be in protected retirement accts, so at some point assets are still going to be considered.</p>

<p>I don’t think this guy “really messed up.”</p>

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<p>I also agree with SteveMa. The best approach is to communicate the amount of dollars you can afford. Make sure your D has a range of applications so that you have the opportunity to select an appropriate college come spring. I’m not sure what the OP means by Ivy-type…whenever I read that, I read “Ivy League” since I’m not sure what Ivy-type means. There is variety within the Ivy League. </p>

<p>I’m wondering what schools she had on her “list” that would compel a guidance counselor to think she was shooting “low” and wondering if with some more information the smart parents here might not be able to give some schools that would not be “shooting low” where she’d get an excellent and challenging education. Did she not apply to any highly selective colleges or universities?</p>

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<p>Show me any evidence that this is true–that low income families have more of a chance than middle to upper income familes in attending these U.'s cost-wise. </p>

<p>As was stated on another thread, median income is around 61K. So we are not talking about middle income families. We are really talking about upper income famlies. </p>

<p>And secondly, think about what it takes simply to gain admission to these colleges–just trying to find housing that’s affordable in a good school system. So there are many more hurdles for lower and middle incomes families to overcome in gaining admission to and then affording these colleges.</p>

<p>And as I said, overall, the choices for an upper income family are greater than a lower income family in looking at the entirety of the admissions spectrum, especially when there is merit money in the picture.</p>

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<p>momofthreeboys–that range is exactly what we did. It meant applying to more schools but most of them were free applications anyway. Each applied to one school they were as close to 100% knowing they would get in and we could afford without any aid or with the automatic merit they offered–both were accepted at those schools. They then applied to several schools where they knew they would get in (as much as possible anyway) that were in the ball park but would need the larger merit awards or other scholarships to attend. DS then applied to one expensive reach school that has been his dream school since he was a little kid, WITH the understanding that if they didn’t hit our target range for what we will pay, he won’t be attending. We didn’t want him going through life asking “I wonder if I would have gotten in”. This way he will know that answer whether he attends or not.</p>

<p>DD had to cross her #1 off her list because they didn’t come up with enough money for her. Yes, she was disappointed but is happy with her choice and has moved on. Considering her #1 was our alma matter, it was a little sad for us too, but we have moved on as well :D.</p>

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<p>

It’s true that an education from a selective private college is an unusual luxury item, in that some people get a substantial discount because they’re poor. It’s not surprising that this annoys people.</p>

<p>But if you were really planning from your kid’s birth to save up for this kind of education, would it be smart planning to have three or four kids?</p>

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<p>Lower-income families don’t have “more of a chance” of attending the handful of universities with substantial aid (Ivies, etc.) since a) EVERYBODY has a low chance of being admitted, and b) in general wealthier people have a higher chance of being able to afford the school districts, EC’s and experiences that are often seen as important in a college application. IF ADMITTED, they have more of a chance to do so for a very low out of pocket cost. </p>

<p>In the broader scheme, if you stop looking at Ivies / elites and pull back and look at the umpteen thousand college options in this country – more well-to-do people are FAR better off, and I wouldn’t trade my life and my privilege for that of a poorer person just so I could be spared the agony of writing a $60K check for a fancy college.</p>

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<p>HHeart,</p>

<p>cptofthehouse has written extensively about the long-term negative effects of digging deep for the first child’s “dream school” on the family budget and the educational options for younger children. In summary: don’t do it. </p>

<p>Many of us have had to limit our children’s college lists because of money. Many of us still feel bad about that even while we watch them thrive at the cheaper institution. When you are with your daughter, keep you guilt and sorrow hidden. Be strong. You are setting a lifetime example to her and her siblings about using money wisely. This is not easy. I know. But it is what you know in your heart you need to do.</p>

<p>Wishing you all the best.</p>

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<p>I’ve wondered idly what percentage of full-pay students at meets-full-need/no-merit-aid privates are only children. I wonder if it’s higher than average. I know we’d balk at paying full fare if we had more than one kid to educate.</p>

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<p>Hopefully, you are not expressing your “Oh, woe is me” attitude around you daughter. It comes across as very negative. She is a wonderful student who will have excellent opportunities at awesome colleges! These schools may actually be a better fit for her academically and/or personally than the Ivy schools. Who cares where “everyone else” is applying? She won’t, especially after she spends her first few weeks at a great school that gave her merit aid. We explored a variety of schools for my son including Ivy league and my husband I had **no reservations **about him accepting a generous merit aid offer from a less than Ivy league school.<br>
You are probably going to be underwriting her medical school education which costs a small fortune! She is lucky to have that comfort.</p>

<p>Get over it and be grateful for every opportunity your family has!</p>

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<p>My d. is in her fifth year of a dual Ph.D. program at Princeton - no, not medicine. Fully (and handsomely) paid. She went to Smith. During those five years, not a single student from any Ivy League school - not even Princeton - has been accepted into her program. </p>

<p>Her education at Smith cost us under half of what it would have been at the local state u. We remain very grateful for their assistance.</p>

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<p>Attending is a combination of being admitted and paying. As HHeart told us his daughter wont be attending because of his issues in paying. If everything else was equal except his income and assets then she could go- which is why people term the policy unfair. </p>

<p>Clearly the differential pricing model is out of control. If the colleges would advertise their actual cost+ for a student then maybe people like HHeart would be able to make a an informed decision about his ability to financial afford it. As it is, in a vacuum people have come up with feel-good a differential pricing policy that is punishing HHeart.</p>

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<p>Clearly the differential pricing model is out of control. If the colleges would advertise their actual cost+ for a student then maybe people like HHeart would be able to make a an informed decision about his ability to financial afford it. As it is, in a vacuum people have come up with feel-good a differential pricing policy that is punishing HHeart.</p>

<p>I thought colleges were pretty upfront with costs. School calculators give an estimate of institutional EFC, schools that meet 100% of need generally use information that may bring costs higher than FAFSA EFC, but unless you are self employed &/or own real estate that is not your primary residence, PROFILE EFC doesn’t have to be significantly higher.</p>

<p>But what I have read on these boards for years is that EFC is often 1/3 to 1/4 of BEFORE tax income.</p>

<p>Our EFC when our oldest was attending a school that met 100% of need, was about $14,000.
Sounds pretty good, doesn’t it?
Cost of the school was about $50,000- although like most “meet full need” school, that need was met with subsidized loans, grants & work study.
Students who are planning on post graduate work in fields that may not be subsidized, may want to consider limiting undergraduate loans.</p>

<p>Compare that with someone whose EFC is $83,000. They might be pretty unhappy, because they hadn’t considered that they will be full pay to most schools.
Of course * after * we paid our EFC, we had $36,000 to live on and someone with an income of $250,000, paying out colleges expenses of $50,000, still has $200,000 for living expenses.</p>

<p>Everyone has to make choices how to spend their family resources.</p>

<p>Paying for college is just another choice, along with where to live, where to vacation, what car to drive…</p>

<p>Additionally, for those of you, who’ve just tuned in, most schools do not meet 100% of need.
Most schools gap.
Merit aid may reduce costs- but-benefits full pay families the most, for others, it may just reduce the amount of need based aid they qualify for, because merit aid, reduces need.</p>

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<p>The trouble is that everything else is not equal. There are advantages for upper income families in all sorts of ways. You can’t simply say that the process advantages low income folks by simply looking at the end of the process, once the students is accepted.</p>

<p>In addition, some of these Ivy-type schools have retreated from being need blind in admissions. Sure, not a lot, and not Harvard, and not a significant percentage of the class, but still, some are choosing to admit based on ability to pay.</p>

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<p>There are Net Price Calculators on most college website, including Ivy-type schools. In addition, there are places like IPEDs which have data the average net price by income level for each college. The information is out there and readily accessible.</p>

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<p>Correct, but not in the way you think. Overall, it’s good for lower income folks only a very small set of schools which you can count on two hands.</p>

<p>For example, at the state flagship in my state, low income families (families who earn between 0-30K)-have an average net price (according to IPEDs) of around 14K. Families who earn above 110K are basically full pay on average, at 21K.</p>

<p>Now who is advantaged with this differential price modeling?</p>

<p>Or take one of the CC ‘Top Liberal Arts Colleges’ such as Whitman college. Average net price for a low income family (0-30K) is 15K. For a middle income family (48-75K) it’s around 23K and for upper income families (over 110K) it’s about 38K.</p>

<p>Is it really easier for the middle income family to pay about 23K than for the upper income family to pay 38K?</p>

<p>College is tough for almost everybody to pay for, except for the fabulously wealthy. </p>

<p>It’s not like I don’t lie awake at night worrying about paying for my sons’ college education because I think I’m middle income (<60K) so I’m gonna get great aid. I’ve done my homework. I know that decent need based aid is tough to come by at most schools except those that have huge endowments.</p>