I’m currently in algebra 2 as a junior so I would be taking pre-calc next year. I’m also currently in a college level physics class and I’m taking AP Bio next year. I can take pre-calc over the summer at our local college but I don’t know if the workload is hard or if it would interfere with studying for college entrance exams. As an engineering major, do colleges like to see that you took calculus in high school, even if it’s just college level, not AP? And if I don’t take it, would it jeopardize my chances of getting admitted?
Very few colleges require or expect frosh applicants to have calculus in high school.
Engineering degree programs generally start with the assumption of being ready for calculus when you enter. This means a strong knowledge of algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and other precalculus math. If you do take calculus in high school and learn and retain the material well, you may be able to start in a more advanced math course, giving you additional flexibility in the curriculum.
However, many students arrive at college and find that their precalculus or calculus knowledge from high school is weak enough (revealed by placement testing at the college) that they must start in a lower level math course than they anticipated. So, whatever math you take, learn it as well as you can.
I’d suggest that if possible you take calculus in HS even if it is not AP level. It will familiarize you with the concepts and leave you better prepared for college level calculus. Many students, especially those in STEM areas, do take calculus in HS.
I’m with @ucbalumnus on this. Of course, if you can get through Calculus AND understand it VERY well, by all means do so. If though you’re faced with breezing through pre-calc just so you can familiarize yourself with Calc, you’re selling yourself short. The quality of your foundation is more important that what class you’ll start with in college because the material is very cumulative.
Here is the (very short) list of US universities that require or expect frosh applicants to have calculus while in high school: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/20848514/#Comment_20848514
Note that an 8 week summer session will cover material twice as fast as in a normal college semester, which is twice as fast as a typical high school course (precalculus is commonly a year in high school, but a semester in college). So if you do take precalculus in the summer, you must be committed to the work and ready for the fast pace (four times what you see in high school). The nominal workload is probably around 24 hours per week, including in-class and out-of-class time.
“Very few colleges require or expect frosh applicants to have calculus in high school.” - True. But it does make it easier to have some experience with calc before college. Also I think that calc (and AP physics) can help validate idea of majoring in engineering. That becomes more important if a student would be considering colleges that are mostly-engineering.
My DD was told by the Georgia Tech admissions officer that without calculus, my DD would not really have her application looked at by GT. Since my DD had transferred high schools, her lack of calculus was not due to any choice on her part (prior high school was terrible in math). The rep said to do what was necessary to have calculus my DD’s senior year. Since GT was my DD’s first choice, she took pre-cal through the BYU online high school program and took AP Cal her senior year. We called it the “summer of no fun.” My DD was accepted to GT and will be graduating from it this year. Georgia Tech now routinely proclaims that 96% or 98% of the accepted freshmen have taken calculus.
I was helping one of my students with her application to Boston College and the BC rep told my student the same thing “significant disadvantage in the applicant pool” and my student was going to major in business . Since my student attended the high school my DD had transferred from, there was no option and my student didn’t want to do summer school. She was not accepted to BC.
If you are applying as an engineering major, I suggest you take pre-cal over the summer and any version of calculus your senior year. It will make your application stronger. Other admission reps from other colleges have told me that calculus is really a must for an applicant wanting to major in engineering. You can look over a college’s course requirements on the website collegedata.com and if it is “required or recommended” then I suggest you hit those targets.
Georgia Tech’s admission web site at http://admission.gatech.edu/freshman/academic-preparation references only the University System of Georgia requirements at http://www.usg.edu/assets/student_affairs/documents/Staying_on_Course.pdf , which does not require calculus; it requires 4 years consisting of “Algebra I/Coordinate Algebra, Geometry/Analytic Geometry, Algebra II/Advanced Algebra, and a 4th unit of advanced math, or equivalent courses”.
Either the person was wrong, or the web site needs to be changed to state the actual requirement.
As admissions to Georgia Tech and other engineering schools gets more competitive, rigor of coursework becomes a bigger part of the review of an applicant in the admissions process. GT’s website says “The University System of Georgia requires minimum academic courses of all first time students, though most applicants exceed those in at least one area.” With multiple universities in the Georgia state system, rigor looked at is not the same for all universities and that is why I don’t think they will make calculus a math requirement. In my nine years of helping students with the college admissions process, I am finding more and more colleges like to see calculus on a student’s transcript. There can be requirements and there can be rigor and the classes may not be the same thing.
I thought my DD was ok mathwise since she had transferred schools and had to play “catch-up” in math and science. At the end of her junior year, the GT admission rep said that to be competitive for admissions she needed calculus and that she would be at a significant disadvantage in the applicant pool. The rep expressed the words that “basically we don’t really look at applicants for engineering without it.” Since GT always posts the percentage of accepted students who have taken calculus (and it is the only course they call out in their publication http://admission.gatech.edu/images/pdf/Freshman_Profile_2016.pdf), I now make it a question I ask admission reps since I have found other colleges have held the same position in what level of math they want to see in an applicant.
Moreover with a school as rigorous as Georgia Tech which requires basically 5-6 math courses in their engineering curriculum, a student really wants to come in with as much math as possible. Most students take the credit given for AP Calculus so that they are further ahead in the sequence of math coursework. My advice for future applicants for engineering is to ask if not having calculus is considered a negative in the review of their application and to take calculus by their senior year if possible.
If calculus is really a requirement for admission to GT, then GT should say so on its web site.
Or, if GT does not want to exclude those in situations where calculus is not available (either not offered, or middle school math placement prevents taking it), it could write “if calculus is available to you in high school, you should take it” on its web site.
When DD1 started architecture at a flagship state school, there was no math listed in the plan of study. Her adviser told her that Baby Calculus 1 is a ‘wink wink’ secret handshake requirement for graduation, tho. Adviser said many kids come in with Calc AP or IB and skip Baby Calc, but if you don’t have any form of Calc in HS you have to take it.
Years later the need for it became evident as nearly every grad architecture school she applied to requires one semester of Baby Calc, and a few (with names ending in -Tech, interestingly enough) require two semesters of Baby Calc.
Generally speaking, nearly every story of high school AP Calc into Calc-happy programs in college (engineering or sciences) I have ever heard from friends’ kids has been a disaster, because Calc AP is not quite to the level of the pro-league Calc 1 in college. I do know one kid that aced multivariate Calc in high school and tested out of it in college, but the guy is genius level good, not a common mortal.
From what I have seen, those starting in a more advanced math course after a 5 on AP calculus generally do fine. Those coming from a 3 may be more prone to have difficulty.
Of course, trying the old final exams of the college’s courses that can be skipped can allow making a more informed placement decision.
@turbo93, my son’s (n=1) experience was certainly counter to what you’ve posted. He was placed into an honors section of Cal 3 based on his BC AP score. He’s made As all the way through linear and is now in tensor calculus. On the other hand, there were students in his Calc 3 class who did very poorly. Everyone in the class scored 5 on the BC exam.
I think the take home message is that a good AP score is not predictive of future anything. Teaching to the test is not the same as teaching the math. The only way to know for sure is to use the old test method outlined by @ucbalumnus.
That’s the thing, small sample sizes and motivated kids. I know one kid that tested out of Calc 3 from High School. Purdue was a bit leary of giving him credit for Calc 3, but he requested the placement test and aced it.
On the average, out of several friends’ kids, he was the only one with a good ending. Several colleagues or their kids all got credit for Calc 1 from HS and had a very hard time in college Calc 2.
But they were all engineering students so there may be something there. As you said, teaching to the test in HS vs teaching to learn.
What did they score on the AP calculus exam?
Purdue currently allows advanced placement in math for a score of 4 or 5 on AP calculus, although the policy may have been different in the past. But I would expect those with 5 scores to have a greater rate of success than those with 4 scores (or especially those with 3 scores, if they were allowed advanced placement in the past).
Also, those who came from calculus AB, or a two year calculus AB and BC sequence, in high school, may have found that the faster pace of college math to be more difficult, independent of whether they know the material from the skipped course(s) well enough to take advanced placement.
That Purdue admits to first year pre-engineering and requires students to compete by college GPA to get into their desired engineering majors may also increase the stress level. B grades are ordinarily good grades, but if the desired major is highly competitive, B grades may be seen as “failing” grades.
That’s the thing, since a lot of my sample points are Purdue engineering. Plus, Purdue Calc is a bit more, ehem, challenging than Calc in other places.