Should it really be this Difficult to Decide? ColumbiaED vs Harvard SCEA

College Search & Selection
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<p>I have posted on this topic before, read almost every thread concerning this topic, fluctuated between the two options, and I am still at a loss. I have asked peers, graduated students, and no consensus can be made. Money is not an issue because my parents have said they have the funds and just want me to apply where I'll have the best chance and be happiest; sadly, I don't think that combination will ever be possible for me.</p>

<p>Again, I have posted on this topic before, so I have heard the idea that if one isn't completely in love with a school then he/she should't apply ED; I really don't feel that is the best take on it. I feel that all I'm doing is making the decision of where I'd enroll if given all the options, just earlier, while maximizing chances (if that makes sense).</p>

<p>At the moment, the school I'd go to, if accepted to all both, at the end of the day is Harvard. It might boost me a little that I'll be applying as an engineering major. However, the chance of that happening is extremely low, early of regular. Early is when all the athletes, legacies, and cream of the crop apply, so being a competitive applicant is not enough. I feel as if I'll be wasting my "golden ticket" with the SCEA.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I would still be EXTREMELY happy going to Columbia. The ED boost might be enough to push the competitive applicant over the edge into the admitted pile, but it might also give the same rejection/deferral a SCEA app will dole out, just less likely due to the less competitive pool.</p>

<p>So the age old question is, should I go all in and go for Harvard, or go for the better chance at my 2nd choice school?</p>

<p>Quick Stats:
Major: BME
SAT: 2290 (M 780 R 740 W 770)
SAT2: Bio 740 M2 790 WH 770
APs: 10- AP World (5) AP Stat (4)
11- AP Physics, AP Chem, AP Lang, AP Calc BC
12- AP Physics, AP Lit, AP Gov, AP Comp Gov, Multivar, AP Comp Sci</p>

<p>Leadership in a few Honor Societies and leadership in a club I have been active since 9th grade</p>

<p>Gov School Last summer and a science research internship this summer</p>

2

<p>You’re too focused on gaming the application system and not focused enough on building a balanced mix of reach, match, and safety schools that are strong in your areas of interest. </p>

<p>If you’re not an athlete, legacy, or cream of the crop applicant, then your chances at Harvard may be in the single digits even if you apply SCEA. Columbia ED chances wouldn’t be much better than that. So think about what appeals to you so much about either of those schools, other than their famous names, and try to identify others that have similar features.</p>

<p>Caltech, Case Western, Georgia Tech, Michigan, and MIT are schools with non-binding EA and apparently strong BME programs (if you believe USNWR, which ranks all these schools ahead of Harvard or Columbia for undergraduate BME.) Other schools that USNWR ranks highly for BME include Duke, Hopkins, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Wisconsin, and WUSTL. Case Western, Vanderbilt, and WUSTL all award significant amounts of merit aid.</p>

<p>Any chance you’ll want to go to med school? If so, think about costs (regardless of what your parents say about funds being available for college.) Med school is frightfully expensive, with little or no available aid.</p>

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<p>I mean I have a list, I just didn’t put it up here; at the moment here it is:</p>

<p>Harvard/Columbia
Yale
Princeton
Brown
UChicago
UVA
VT
Pitt</p>

<p>I’m instate and have pretty high scores, so I’m pretty confident about UVA and VT so those are like in limbo between matches and safeties. I do have a lot of high reaches, but that’s mainly because my parents and I have decided that it’s going to be a “reach for the stars” or UVA/VT situation, because honestly if I don’t get a chance at any of the reach schools, UVA/VT are fine with me. C’mon, you gotta give me the benefit of the doubt. As for the list of schools you have provided, I have at one time or another considered every one of these schools with my family, and the decision every time, for schools not on my list, has been that I’d be happier in-state and saving money than going there; and frankly, I feel insulted that some think I’m only looking at the names of these schools, because if that were the case, why isn’t Stanford, or MIT, or CalTech, or Dartmouth, or Cornell, or University of Pennsylvania on my list? Because I looked past the prestige and looked at things like campus life, housing, sense of security, flexibility, and visits into account.</p>

<p>You might be wondering why I have only 1-2 strong engineering schools on my list if I’m interested in BME. The thing is that I’m not sure about BME so I want schools that will offer me flexibility and options. Second, after talking to my parents, who are both engineers, and their bosses etc., it seems that it really doesn’t matter where you get your engineering degree as long as it’s ABET accredited; it’s really more about whether you can think on the spot.</p>

<p>The problem I still have is that I have two schools I am in love with, and I just want to have the best chance to get into one of them. So any constructive feedback would be great!</p>

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<p>As tk21769 said, Harvard and Columbia are not the only schools with strong engineering programs. I don’t mean to bring you down but there’s a chance that you may not even be accepted with ED or EA. Take a step back, look at other schools, and apply to the schools you WANT to attend. If you like Harvard that much then apply early action. Don’t stress out over this. Good luck and I hope you end up where you want.</p>

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<p>You need a reality check…take a look at the early acceptance numbers from both of those schools. From the number accepted, subtract the number of “hooked” applicants (athletes, legacies, donors’ children, faculty children, children of the very rich/famous/infamous, students with one or another crazy stratospheric achievement) and see how many slots are available for the average stellar applicant (of which you are one! You have a lot to be proud of). Now compare the number of applicants with the realistic number of open slots.</p>

<p>While you say you would be happy with UVA and VT–think twice if VT is really your first choice, because it is realistic to think that it might be your only acceptance. I certainly think you have a great shot at UVA, but that school is crazy competitive too and it not a sure thing.</p>

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<p>“You might be wondering why I have only 1-2 strong engineering schools on my list if I’m interested in BME. The thing is that I’m not sure about BME so I want schools that will offer me flexibility and options. Second, after talking to my parents, who are both engineers, and their bosses etc., it seems that it really doesn’t matter where you get your engineering degree as long as it’s ABET accredited; it’s really more about whether you can think on the spot.”</p>

<p>Which begs the question; why is the University of Chicago on your list?</p>

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<p>U Chicago is in my list because when I visited I lived it there plus even though they don’t have engineering they still have very good biochem and biophysics programs(which I think I’d do if I don’t do BME)</p>

<p>I know that UVA has a very competitive applicant pool, but in the past 5 years at my school, the trend is that if you have a 4.2 weighted gpa and above a 2100 sat, as well as decent essays and rec, u are in. I don’t mean to sound overly sure of myself, but I strongly feel as if uva us very in reach for me. </p>

<p>And to boysx3, I’m getting that you’re saying that there will be an equal chance for a competitive applicant. Is that correct or will there be a discernible difference between ED and SCEA?</p>

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<p>I don’t think SCEA at Harvard would really improve your chances, to be honest it would be a huge reach either way. On the other hand, I really think ED at Columbia could push you over the edge and really improve your chances. Are you 100% sure that you would be able to afford Columbia no matter what? If the only school you would prefer over Columbia is Harvard, then depending on your financial situation I would say Columbia ED might be the better option.</p>

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<p>I used to be of the mind set that if you couldn’t decide, that meant you shouldn’t do early decision/early action at all. But after working at Columbia for several years, I learned from admissions that sometimes as much as 40% of their students are admitted through ED, so I do think it significantly bumps your chances even though they say it doesn’t. And if your parents can afford to send you anywhere, I don’t think you have to absolutely be in love; I think it just needs to be a school you like a lot and would attend if accepted, without regrets or second thoughts.</p>

<p>Early is when all the legacies, athletes, and top students apply at BOTH schools, not just Harvard. And I know that CC has made this ridiculous hierarchy of HYP and the “lesser Ivies,” but make no mistake - Columbia is very nearly as competitive as Harvard. Harvard only accepted 5.8% of their applicants last year, and Columbia accepted 6.89%. That’s not a significant difference, most likely. The pool of Columbia students is not significantly less competitive than the pool of Harvard applicants, and likely the same students are applying to both. So I don’t think there will be any discernible difference between ED/EA at either school.</p>

<p>So if Harvard is your first choice, do SCEA there and apply regular decision to Columbia.</p>

<p>You’re a great student, but you are average for both Columbia and Harvard.</p>

<p>UVa’s acceptance rate is 27%. You’re a great applicant, but that is one of the most competitive public universities. VT’s is 67% which is on a whole other level, but it’s a very well-respected public university especially for engineering.</p>

<p>There are other great public universities in Virginia. Why not add George Mason (bioengineering), Virginia Commonwealth (biomedical engineering), James Madison (general engineering), or the 3/2 program at William & Mary (not ideal, but you could go on to Columbia for the last 2 years of your degree)?</p>

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<p>Just a number to throw out there everyone: uva accepts 43% of students instate</p>

<p>[Notes</a> from Peabody: The UVA Application Process: Early Action Admission Statistics](<a href=“Notes from Peabody: The UVA Application Process: Early Action Admission Statistics”>Notes from Peabody: The UVA Application Process: Early Action Admission Statistics)</p>

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<p>bump 10char</p>

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<p>tommy, just do a google search for UVA’s common data set and you will get a fairly good idea of how you stack up exactly. Also use your school’s naviance, if your school has it (ask your guidance counselor for access if you need to).</p>

<p>I do think you have a good chance at UVA, it’s just that it’s not a “match” for almost any student these days.</p>

<p>Other programs maybe you should look at: Northwestern, especially the Integrated Science and Math program; maybe Carnegie Mellon or Johns Hopkins; University of Rochester</p>

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<p>Thanks for the suggestions boysx3. I have thought of these schools before and just didn’t feel right. Northwestern’s frat scene in my opinion felt too dominant when I visited; CMU was just to hard science focused; JHU, after talking to many current students, is too cut-throat in the sciences b/c of the premeds and plus if I wanted to do premed, it’s be cut-throat :P</p>

<p>but do you guys feel that there is enough of a discernible difference to go for my second choice Columbia ED instead of my top choice Harvard SCEA?</p>

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<p>If you think you would be happier at Harvard then go for Harvard.</p>

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<p>You should only apply ED if a school is your absolute first choice. Dont’ use an ED simply to work the system to your advantage. I’d apply to Harvard SCEA if that is your top choice.</p>

<p>I would also consider applying to couple of other school in between VT and your top choices. If you didn’t like JHU (the obvious choice to me but I see you didn’t like it), perhaps Carnegie Mellon? Vanderbilt? GA Tech? UMichigan?</p>

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<p>I agree, there’s no point in applying to Columbia ED if Harvard is your first choice. ED may give you a boost at Columbia, but an ED application to Columbia sure won’t help you at Harvard.</p>

<p>No one can predict if you will be accepted by Harvard, but if you don’t take advantage of the SCEA option and you are ultimately denied, you may regret it. </p>

<p>Your list does seem a little top heavy and you don’t seem to be too enthusiastic about your less selectives. Could you apply to both Harvard SCEA and UVA EA? Have you looked at some of the science heavy LACs?</p>

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<p>I’m really at this point going to treat UVA as a match, and a strong one at that. My school’s naviance graph has shown that nobody in four years has been rejected if they have had above a 2100 GPA and a 4.2 WGPA (I have a GPA much higher than that). So though I do understand the competitiveness of UVA, in my particular case, I feel it’s an exception.</p>

<p>As for all the schools in between my top choices and UVA, i really didn’t like any of them. I’m still thinking about a few super reach schools (ie Stanford, but its on the west coast so not sure). Schools like WashU, Vandy, Ga Tech, Michigan,Northwestern, JHU, CMU, etc. I feel are not worth the extra (almost $150,000) cost when compared to UVA’s programs or VT engineering. Trust me when I say I would be utterly excited to go to UVA or VT, and the only schools that would convince me not to go to UVA/VT are the ones above them on the list.</p>

<p>The reason I’m considering Columbia ED even though Harvard SCEA is available is that I feel that SCEA is just wasting a golden opportunity to get into my second choice school with ED, while SCEA would probably lead to a deferral/rejection. And in the end, I’d rather get into my 2nd choice school than being deferred/rejected SCEA.</p>

<p>And as for early/reg:</p>

<p>If I did Harvard SCEA I would also apply: UVA EA and Pitt Rolling</p>

<p>If I did Columbia ED I would apply: UVA EA, U Chicago EA, and Pitt Rolling</p>

<p>And momrath: what are some science heavy LACs? Are these like Harvey Mudd, CalTech, etc?</p>

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<p>

No I was thinking more of small, academically excellent liberal arts schools with strong sciences – including physics, math – like Williams, Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Carleton, Grinnell for example. There are others.</p>

<p>I understand your reasoning on Columbia ED, but it’s flawed if what you want most is Harvard. An ED acceptance to Columbia would negate any chance at Harvard, so that strategy could backfire on you. </p>

<p>You still have six months to think this through. You might want to work on the subjective parts of your application: your essays, recommendations, extracurricular resume. Maybe do some more visiting, widen your list a bit.</p>

<p>Most likely you’ll have a UVA acceptance in the bag by the time you send out the balance of your applications, but since you seem to be leaning toward an out-of-state experience it would be good to have some other options that are not as maddeningly selective as the Ivy League schools on your list.</p>

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<p>I think it’s hard for some of us to understand what is the common thread that causes you to choose Chicago, Brown, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, and Harvard, yet pass up many slightly less selective schools with similar characteristics (and better programs in BME). What is it about the Columbia and Harvard pair that sets it apart from any other schools? You say you looked past the prestige at things like campus life, housing, sense of security, flexibility, and visits into account. Based on those factors, it’s a little baffling why Chicago would make the cut but not Penn, which has a more flexible curriculum, is probably no less secure than Chicago, and has a stronger BME program than any school on your list.</p>

<p>I don’t think there is any logic or evidence that will cut the Columbia RD/ED v. Harvard SCEA/RD knot for you. No combination of choices will make it very likely you’ll be admitted to at least one of them. Early admit rates for these schools (as well as Yale, Princeton, Brown, and Chicago) are in the 10%-20% range. It’s hard to say what YOUR odds might be, but if you’re not a “hooked” applicant, I suppose it would be at the lower end of that range. Your stats are very good, but without compelling ECs you’re just about an average applicant to these places. It’s probably your essays, LORs, etc, that would make a more significant difference.</p>

<p>Having said all that, if you’d be nearly as happy at VT or UVa as at anywhere else, then I think your list is not bad. I’m guessing you’ll be admitted to Pitt, VT, UVa, with maybe 1 admit or WL from the rest (probably Brown or Chicago… but maybe a surprise from the others as well.) If cost is not a factor, and you really don’t care that much about BME, that would be a pretty good outcome. So flip a coin on the ED/SCEA decision, then move on.</p>

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<p>No, you didn’t. The schools on your list may offer those things as well, but prestige is the common factor. Hundreds of schools offer great campus life, housing, security, etc.</p>

<p>From your earlier posts it looks like you are an ORM. That is going to work against you at the places you are planning to apply. I can’t imagine you not getting into UVA or VT or Pitt but the rest are going to be tough no matter how you apply.</p>