<p>isn’t this really a moot issue anyway… the ivy league isn’t going anywhere…</p>
<p>Because I find it hilarious people posit the abolition (by what power and what interests?, lol) of the Ivy league and are even bothering to compare those schools on an arbitrary axis of value, I am posting the following:</p>
<p><em>shrug</em>
I’m sticking to what I said. It’s at least partially true, you can’t deny that. I did extensive research on the subject before engaging into all this cut-throat competition so I wouldn’t say I’m misinformed. As you say, not all employers may prefer HYP graduates, but some certainly do ( my friend’s uncle’s fairly successful aeronautical company in the UK only takes Cambridge and Imperial graduates for example, the British equivalent of HYP).
Most employers outside the US (not Commonwealth countries - I’m thinking my Italian motherland, for example) haven’t heard of many American universities outside Harvard and friends… and if I decide to work there one day, it will certainly give me an extra push if they know the name of the university I went to.
To say it won’t, and to say it’s “unsophisticated” to try to get into a school that might at some point give me a few extra points ( not in the name of a ruined education by any means. The schools are, finally, excellent) is ,in my opinion, to some extent naive.</p>
<p>Mind you. This isn’t a summary of my values. I am perfectly aware that one university is more or less just as good as another. A smaller university might be more personal, you may derive more meaningful, life-changing experiences from it etc.
Of course, it also depends on the job you’re looking into, and how much you learned in university ( they’re not going to take a HYP graduate over a non-ivy graduate if the previous is a drooling moron who got in by some terrifying accident). A name is a name afterall… but if it can help you get through a certain threshold after which you are free to show your potentials and skills etc. (a chance not always given to you in the working world - my parents are a living testimony of this), than i’m all for taking the Rolex and having more of a chance -in certain domains at least- to prove myself in the places that <em>do</em> discriminate.</p>
<p>Imperial would be the equivalent of MIT of Caltech, neither of which are part of the Ivy League.
The other problem I have with your example is that after Oxford and Cambridge, the quality and reputation of other UK universities drops down very fast. Not so in the US. Stanford, Chicago, Duke, Berkeley, UCLA, other research universities, and a host of LACs are every bit as good as Ivy League schools and known to be so where it counts.</p>
<p>“Most employers outside the US (not Commonwealth countries - I’m thinking my Italian motherland, for example) haven’t heard of many American universities outside Harvard and friends… and if I decide to work there one day, it will certainly give me an extra push if they know the name of the university I went to.”</p>
<p>But that’s an entirely different argument. “Only HYP and the rest of the Ivies and maybe Stanford and MIT are known outside the US” – that indeed may be very true. But what does that have to do with working in the US, which is the destination for the vast majority of students on CC? And what does that have to do with the fact that IN THE US, there are only a handful of industries / employers who are explicitly going after HYP and only HYP, and the vast majority of employers in the US, while certainly favorable towards good colleges, are likely themselves state flagship or equivalent school grads? It’s not as Ivy grads could possibly constitute the vast majority of employers in this country. Ivy grads are what % of the adult population in the US? Let’s say 2%? (I don’t know, I’m just guessing.) Do you think they account for more than 3% of all employers? Of course not. There seems to be this blindness of CC that jobs are found in all industries and all locations, not just Wall Street.</p>
<p>“To say it won’t, and to say it’s “unsophisticated” to try to get into a school that might at some point give me a few extra points ( not in the name of a ruined education by any means. The schools are, finally, excellent) is ,in my opinion, to some extent naive.”</p>
<p>IndiaRubber, <em>I</em> went to a top 20, and got into 3 other schools, 2 of which were also top 20 (one an Ivy) and one which is just below. I didn’t say it was unsophisticated to try to get into a good school or a school that opens doors. The unsophistication is in the person who has a smart child and only chases Ivies without considering other top schools, LAC’s, etc. because “they’re Ivies so they are the be-all-end-all.” Being an Ivy-chaser for the sake of the name is gauche and tacky, and it’s amusing when it comes from people who are trying to move into what they consider upper class American society.</p>
<p>Marite: Your comment is a little irrelevant. I used Imperial and Oxbridge as examples for their prestige (which is undeniable!). There are no exact UK equivalents of Ivies (as you said yourself) so that’s the closest match I could find.
I also highly disagree with what you said regarding the non-oxbridge UK universities’ reputation/quality but that’s quite a different argument.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl:I don’t think you read my post too attentively. You seem to have misunderstood part of my argument. Anyway.</p>
<p>“But what does that have to do with working in the US, which is the destination for the vast majority of students on CC? And what does that have to do with the fact that IN THE US, there are only a handful of industries / employers who are explicitly going after HYP and only HYP”</p>
<p>Apologies if you were referring to people hoping to work in the US only. I thought I’d bring in the opinion of an International who isn’t especially bound to the States to give the issue more dimension/ point out how it affects different components of the student body and their future plans.
Again, what you say is valid, but it all depends on where you’re willing to work, what you’re hoping to do etc.
I rest my case!</p>
<p>No, it is not in the least irrelevant. I know the UK universities because I lived in London (H worked at Imperial College) for several years.</p>
<p>Oxbridge reputation is heightened not just by their histories and excellence but also by the fact that no other UK university approaches them in terms of resources, range of offerings and level of excellence. This is not true of the US. Graduate schools are well aware of the excellent preparation of graduates of, say Williams or Amherst or Swarthmore, or UCLA or Michigan, or Duke, Chicago, Reed, Berkeley, Washington University, and many others. Many Ivy faculty members send their sons and daughters to these non-Ivy schools in preference to their own institutions (where their children would have a hook). In fact, I once heard a university prof refer to the University of Chicago as the academic families’ school of choice. </p>
<p>Internationals are very skewed in what they know of American institutions. Harvard in particular, has an overweening and not really deserved advantage in that respect (and I speak as someone whose connections to Harvard are of very long-standing and as the parent of a current Harvard student). By that, I mean that excellent though it is, Harvard is not better necessarily than Chicago or Duke, or some of the top LACs. But even though their knowledge of American institutions of higher education may be limited, foreigners know about Berkeley and Michigan, MIT and Caltech and Stanford, and believe, me, others as well. Smith and Wellesley seem to be quite popular among Asian families with college-age daughters.</p>
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<p>When it comes to watches I think Patek Philippe is the Ivy in watches that might not be known to many. Rolex is like LV in purses that are luxury items which are known across the globe. Just because these are known across the globe doesn’t make these as average Joe’s luxury aspirations. These are the brands that have sense of luxury but are very practical and worth the value. Consider these as MIT and Stanford which are known across the globe but dont have the hype of Ivies.</p>
<p>The brand likes Patek Philippe in watches and Hermes in purses can be termed as items that might not have much practical value but are at the top due to the brand value.</p>
<p>I think it’s amusing how the only thing that seems to count is how people across the globe, who have limited knowledge of American institutions, see things. Whatever.</p>
<p>Look, the Ivies are all great schools. No argument or question there.
I really don’t give a crap what people in other countries “think” are the most exclusive schools, because they don’t live here, and they don’t know. So if they think that only Ivies/MIT/Stanford are worthwhile? So what? Why should their opinion count as anything? <em>I</em> know better. <em>I</em> know that a degree from Swarthmore or Haverford or U Chicago or Carleton or whatever is no less of an indicator of intelligence than a degree from an Ivy. So the fact that a bunch of people overseas don’t know the difference? Big deal. Why do I need to impress them? What makes them the arbiters of prestige?</p>
<p>So POIH, did you really buy your wife an unattractive bag and expect her to find it valuable since it had the Hermes name on it?</p>
<p>Marite: That’s a fragment of the argument. I was creating a parallel, slightly skewed perhaps, between the schools … but we’re dealing with completely different countries and educational systems.Whether Imperial is more like MIT or Stanford is not what i was getting at. I was simply quoting it for its prestige.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: Oh Lawd. Did I say that what internationals thought is all that matters? I did not. I simply re-interpreted the matter from my point of view and, i think, added an important facet to a point made at one point in this thread.
Do all Americans stay in the U.S. to work? Most of them might, but not all. And so, when you present your diploma from University X unknown to “Agenzie Tizio e Caio” in such and such country for your dream job of Y, you may be disadvantaged in the way i mentioned earlier. That is something to take into consideration, surely.
I also never mentioned exclusiveness - I talked about knowing a name ( The Sorbonne, in France, for example and for reasons poorly understood by most French, is greatly lauded by many non-French. I can assure you it is in no way “exclusive”. However, it may instill some confidence in an employer that has little knowledge of French schools, whether he is misinformed of its excellence or not).
I have no doubt that you, Pizzagirl, graduate of Swathmore or Haverford or whatever know that your degree is worth no less than a degree from Harvard, but I was bringing in the scenario of the workforce - particularly one abroad- to add to the discussion of what it means, in the face of an increasingly international academic arena ( the world, afterall, consists of more than just one congregation of states), to go to an ivy league and what advantages/disadvantages might entail.</p>
<p>
Couple of reasons:
- Its a global economy now you will meet and work with people around the globe.
- You might endup working in US for a Chineese or Japaneese company.
- You may endup working in someother country.
Unless you are planning to do a teaching job in a mid west rural area.</p>
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<p>She didn’t like it and so I gave her a Prada bag.</p>
<p>Indiarubber:</p>
<p>I got your point, and it is a lot of nonsense. Take it from someone who has been around institutions of higher education in several countries for probably longer than you have been on this earth by a long chalk.</p>
<p>Maybe some foreigners are hung up on HYP, but it’s out of ignorance. And others should not be swayed by ignorant opinions. If you are in computer science, you are much better off at Carnegie-Mellon than at Harvard. In China, chances are that an MIT degree trumps one from Harvard. My H happens to work at a firm founded by Indian graduates of MIT.</p>
<p>"Couple of reasons:
- Its a global economy now you will meet and work with people around the globe.
- You might endup working in US for a Chineese or Japaneese company.
- You may endup working in someother country.
Unless you are planning to do a teaching job in a mid west rural area."</p>
<p>I already meet and work with people around the globe, and I’ve proven myself already in my field, so they’re not looking to what college I went to. And what’s with the teaching job in a midwest rural area? I"m not a teacher in a midwest rural area, so not sure why you went there.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: Could you tell us all the Ivies that rejected you as that appears to be the only plausible reason for you to continue spewing this garbage?</p>
<p>What garbage? All the Ivies are fine schools, and I’ve never said anything but. I considered two (Princeton and Penn), applied / was accepted to Penn, but turned it down for another top 20 school that had a program of specific interest to me. But Penn would have been a fine choice. Where have I said anything different?</p>
<p>I never said that the Ivies weren’t fine schools. What I think is nonsense is Ivy-chasing FOR THE SAKE of Ivy-chasing, and the lack of sophistication by people who blindly chase a brand name. It reminds me of the stereotype of Japanese girls who clad themselves head-to-toe in Louis Vuitton thinking that it makes them look chic and sophisticated, when in fact true chic and sophistication can be found without outward labels.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl: Let me say this another way: Did you apply to any other Ivy than Penn? And which Ivies rejected your application? You come across like so many who, rather than buy a Brooks Brothers suit for X $, instead buys a Men’s Wearhouse suit for 1/3 of X $, and who spends much energy bloviating how the cheaper suit is just as good. So my guess is you probably got shot down at either H, Y, P, or D.</p>
<p>How very offensive to Pizzagirl! The argument has been made that being part of the Ivy League gives some schools a certain cachet that opens doors. Pizzagirl was admitted to an Ivy League school, and chose not to attend it; she is successful in her chosen career, showing that not attending an Ivy League school had no negative impact on her life. Pizzagirl is not arguing from the standpoint of a dejected suitor, but of a person who got into an Ivy. What is there to sneer about?</p>
<p>My S hesitated between MIT and Harvard. In the end, he chose Harvard, not because it is an Ivy League school, but because he wanted to be among an academically more diverse group of friends. It had nothing to do with perceived prestige. He was also admitted to Stanford but decided against going to CA. But any of the three would have been great choices for his intended major and equally prestigious in the eyes of graduate programs or employers.</p>
<p>Years before, I hesitated between Harvard and another school. The basis of my hesitation was career choice rather than prestige. By April, I had decided on one career path, so Harvard made the better sense. Had I decided on the other career path, the other school would have been the far better choice (it’s not an Ivy). And perhaps, I would have earned more than what I am earning now.</p>