<p>Full rides are very attarctive for parents and should not be ignored. However, sometime studnets do not want to do that as they can express what they would like to do. Since a student works hard any reasonable help from parents is expected. It depends on family to family financial circumstances and family willingness to pay. Whatever family chooses to do, it is their decision and a right one.</p>
<p>I should add that I don't even like sports, and until about 10 years ago, shared the same biases against preferences for athletes that many have espoused here. Frankly, I even thought that all athletes were stupid. Neither of my sons are athletes either.</p>
<p>Since then, however, I have seen some of the things that athletes can bring to a campus that helps make it well rounded. I also have noticed that some people whom I admire such as Bill Bradley were college athletes who probably got into places like Ivies because of their athletics, and who have since made major contributions to society outside of the athletics field.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, we need to talk apples to apples. Sure, Harvard can fill its choirs and orchestras with talented musicians but it cannot fill these groups with world-class musicians. Similarly, I'm sure Harvard can fill its teams with talented athletes without beating the bushes for them. It cannot fill its teams with world-class athletes without offering special admission. I continue to wonder why it's so important that it have one but not the other.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what you're trying to convey with regard to the athletes at my kids' school. EVERY kid at that school is a strong student. For the most part, they don't get there unless they demonstrate academic ability. So while the athletes may be good students, the kids who aren't getting in are often better students with their own sets of skills but alas no coach to get them in. Once again, I have great respect for athletes just as I do for every dedicated, passionate accomplished student. I just don't see why there need be such blatant favoritism for one subset of students.</p>
<p>I don't know the exact figures but the vast majority of kids at my kids' school play on one team or another. Same with our local public school. I don't know or care whether they're top flight athletes as that's not my point. I'm saying only that there are as many kids applying with athletics as an EC as music--in my area far more. Obviously, only the standouts in either category--or ANY category--should be the ones recruited. When I see how many are recruited for athletics in this region of the country, I'm staggered. It seems excessive and unfair, notwithstanding the arguments to the contrary.</p>
<p>Thanks Bay. This at least makes sense to me.</p>
<p>BTW Soshi,</p>
<p>Just because a student plays varsity sports for all 4 years, it doesn't mean they will be good enough to play at the Divsion I level. In fact, most likely they will NOT be.</p>
<p>"Northstarmom, we need to talk apples to apples. Sure, Harvard can fill its choirs and orchestras with talented musicians but it cannot fill these groups with world-class musicians. Similarly, I'm sure Harvard can fill its teams with talented athletes without beating the bushes for them. It cannot fill its teams with world-class athletes without offering special admission. I continue to wonder why it's so important that it have one but not the other."</p>
<p>The Ivies don't have athletic teams filled with world class athletes. They do need, however, athletic teams that are good enough not to be jokes or embarassments. Since it's very difficult to find excellent athetes with the academic background, and the interest in going to Ivy teams, to get such players, the Ivies have to recruit them.</p>
<p>Sports are competitive, and the results of those competitions are put in the media. Sports like football need lots of players, and also are big events for students as well as alum, attracting far more press and crowds than, for instance, a university chorale or orchestra.</p>
<p>Should Yale have a far better orchestra, chorus or band than Harvard, few people would know or care. Should Yale have a fabulous Ivy League- winning football team while Harvard's was the worst in the league, this would be of interest to most students and alum at both schools, particularly when Yale tromped Harvard at the Harvard-Yale game.</p>
<p>Should Yale students get lots of Rhodes Scholarships (which go to scholar-athletes) while Harvard gets none, that too would be something that alum and students would not be pleased about.</p>
<p>Since there aren't equivalent awards for musicians, finding outstanding musician-scholars isn't of as great importance as finding those athletes who can help Ivies win championships and Rhodes Scholarships.</p>
<p>I would also add that a good football team brings schools a lot more money than a good orchestra.</p>
<p>Many (most?) of the musicians in the country with the equivalent talent to a DI athlete have chosen to major in music performance- and an Ivy or top LAC is generally not the best choice for that. My academically talented daughter didn't even look at Ivys or top LACs (except for Oberlin-conservatory) for her vocal performance program. On the other hand, you don't major in football or track (OK-maybe you do at Florida or Alabama).</p>
<p>MomofWildChild makes a good point in post #88 that relates to even my personal experience in my own family too. My D who plays a varsity D1 sport at her Ivy (was not recruited, however) is highly passionate about her sport but her sport is NOT her major and is NOT the field that she will pursue beyond college, though it will always be an activity/interest that she does. But I also have a D who while a "gifted" type academic learner who could have opted to seek some of the most selective schools academically, is a performing artist and was seeking a top conservatory type program in a university because her passion is ALSO her major and ALSO her life's ambition, totally a different situation than her sister. So, in her case, while she wanted strong academics, she wanted a conservatory and a BFA degree and so went for top ones in her field. While some like her may still opt to go Ivy, many top talented performing arts students who particularly want to seek careers in this field, opt to go the conservatory route. Their EC passion is also their academic major, which is not the case with sports.</p>
<p>"While some like her may still opt to go Ivy, many top talented performing arts students who particularly want to seek careers in this field, opt to go the conservatory route. Their EC passion is also their academic major, which is not the case with sports."</p>
<p>It's true that many smart, talented, artistic people choose to go to conservatories and have no interest in going to places like Ivies. Similarly, however, many athletes in addition to planning to go pro, choose to major in sports related things, something that one can't do at Ivies, where you can't major in exercise science, sports management and phys ed.</p>
<p>My kids are neither standout athletes nor standout musicians and I have no inside knowledge of either arena save for the fact that both are extremely competitive fields. I was trying to use music as an analogue and it may not have been the best example. It may also be that I <em>would</em> care about the differences between a school's commitment to the arts more than the ordinary person and that I care much less about the differences between athletic teams than the ordinary person. It's really hard for me to imagine that Harvard would be embarrassed by having a lesser ski team or equestrian team than another Ivy....but then, it's not particularly important to me. On the other hand, I would be embarrassed if my school were not winning literary, artistic, or musical competitions. I'm sure you'll all rush to tell me that there are scores of kids out there who are likely contenders for such awards and such talent needn't be recruited but I disagree.</p>
<p>My own dd is a very strong student but what distinguishes her is her writing. In every setting she's entered, from the time she was very young, she's stood out as unusual. She's won awards in school and out, she's been flagged by college professors, she's widely admired in her competitive private high school and I've been told again and again how unusual she is. I can assure you that no one is recruiting her and I don't expect anyone to do so. I'm not a braggy parent and have never been so (probably should be a lot more than I am) but I do not think any school will have many kids of dd's caliber in their English/writing programs. It seems unbalanced to me that athletic ability is viewed as having greater inherent value than any other, that's all.</p>
<p>MomofWildChild and Soozievt, you are both correct of course. It makes sense that a standout musician who wants to pursue music would choose a conservatory rather than an Ivy.</p>
<p>Shoshi...maybe you are getting caught up on the "recruitment" aspect. But other than "recruiting", I can assure you that the most selective colleges WANT talented musicians, dancers, actors, writers, and not just athletes. Having significant achievements in these other areas IS attractive to the most selective colleges, such as Ivies (I only use Ivies since that is what this thread referred to though there are many other highly selective schools). My own kid who got into many selective schools, including Ivies, was not recruited. However, she had significant achievements in several sports and actually also in the performing arts, by the way. My kids know several highly talented kids in the arts who have gotten into Ivies who didn't want to pursue a conservatory route. I am sure their talents were assets to their admissions process. One need not be officially "recruited" to be very attractive to a top college. In fact, a gifted writer, like your D, is very attractive in selective college admissions, particularly if she has documented achievements as a writer. Kids who stand out in many areas are attractive in competitive college admissions. </p>
<p>I believe sports doesn't have an inherent value higher than other talents when it comes to Ivy admissions. I truly believe Ivies want kids who are stand outs in whatever their passion may be....kids with a high degree of talent, drive, leadership, achievements, etc. that go beyond academics will be sought after by Ivies, even though there is not an official "recruiting" process. Even my own kid who goes to an Ivy was not recruited for sports but her record clearly demonstrated that she would be contributing to the school in some capacity in her EC endeavors and indeed she is now. Sports did not get her in. But Ivies are attracted to kids who are BOTH very strong academically AND strong in activities/achievements outside of the classroom. Thus someone who has published or won writing contests, been in professional shows, played with a symphony, achieved on a regional level in a sport, etc. etc. will be seen as an attractive candidate. Trust me, at the Ivy admit level, plenty of kids who have such talents, including ATHLETES, also are very good students. They don't have to dip low academically to get some very good athletes for their teams. The kids I know on my D's sport teams at college had the academics to get in and their sports were just another asset on their record. I know that was the case for my own kid (who wasn't actually recruited). Though she is accomplished in sports, she also had academics such as being valedictorian. The sports weren't more valuable than something else. I think with most kids at Ivy calibur schools, it is the entire package, whether that package includes athletic talent, artistic talent or some other special talent.</p>
<p>shoshi,</p>
<p>I agree that you may just be too caught up in the "recruiting" aspect of it. My d was a "recruited" Ivy athlete, but all that means is that the Ivy Coach identified her as someone he wanted on the team and encouraged her to apply. In the end, it was the admissions office's decision, and I doubt that her athletic talent really gave her any more of an edge than your d's outstanding writing talent will. (My d also had outstanding academic credentials).</p>
<p>Shoshi-</p>
<p>Also, the fact that athletes get the early likely letters probably makes it seem like there is more value placed on athletics than other fields. But as I said earlier, the Ivies are forced to go early with the athletes due to the NCAA recruiting schedule. I would guess that without the NCAA pressure, athletes would be admitted at the same time as all other applicants.</p>
<p>
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Xiggi, not sure what part of bs's story you find incredible but I can corroborate the first part: a track star from dd's high school was recruited to a top Ivy with a 3.2 ish gpa and ~1900 SAT. There are rumors floating about another Ivy having to adjust its expectations to accomodate a different athlete from the same high school. I can't vouch for that one though.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, let me clarify it ...</p>
<p>There was this one person at my school who played a sport really really well, had a 3.2, a 1950 on the SAT's and got into a top 5 school (IVY) ==> so far so good! </p>
<p>FULL RIDE! ==> Full ride based on a 100% NEED BASED scholarship? I'll buy that, but let's see the rest of the post! </p>
<p>When are the ivies going to come out and say they YES they DO recruit and they DO give MERIT-based scholarships (even the the board of ivies claims they only give need based)? All a sports scholarship is is Merit based. ==> All doubt is now removed. The implication was that a top five Ivy (supposed to be Penn) gave a full ride based on merit. And to that I said ...</p>
<p>Most Ivys in MOST sports do not even give likely letters. If you really push for one, you can get one. Check the old threads and see how many Ivy recruits were sweating that ED decision just like everyone else. The assurance of the coach was NOT always good enough.....</p>
<p>Many sports have systematic recruiting which is where it differs from talents in other areas such as the arts. The athletic departments for colleges, including the ivies submit lists of students they specifically want, and have arrangements with admissions for those kids to be earmarked as recruited. Other departments in the colleges do not tend to do this. In the arts, if the a program has an audition or portfolio compenent, a similar situation may occur for those students. Often those departments, like the athletic department will submit a list of the students they want. Again, like athletics, depending on the arrangement that admissions has with the department, the decision is made with the list in mind. Just as in sports, there may be kids on that list who are denied for academic reasons, but admissions gives those on the list extra consideration, though the amount varies from school to school. For athletics, it varies by the sport as well. Football, basketball, and any sport dear to a school will get much more consideration for the kids they want than a sport that is not high interest to the school. The interest and involvement of the coach and athletic department as well as that of the school for any given sport figures greatly in how much leeway admissions will give. In a school like Duke, for instance, a top basketball player get a lot of consideration. Admissions may not even have a say about those athletes. The same situation would not be for some of the other sports that are not as high profile for Duke. In many cases, the sport may well count as much as any other activity a student has on his resume. </p>
<p>In a school where no auditions or portfolios are required, and the talent is assessed by description, the process becomes less specific most of the time. The choir or orchestra may let admissions know its needs, but will not be directly involved in assessing the apps, but the adcoms will keep an eye on the wish list that departments give them as to what the university needs to keep its activities humming at a high level. Again, the extent of consideration for the student will heavily be dependent on how strong the activity is at that college. If a school has a renowned orchestra that the head of the school, and community hold in high esteem, you had better believe that admissions will make sure that orchestra is kept well stocked. This also extends to academic departments. If a well known, heavy hitter prof wants more kids interested in his department and makes noise, if he has some punch with the school, I have no doubt that admissions will be told of this need in the college community. But there are no specific venues that these things have in terms of recruiting like athletics has which is why it becomes more of a face to face process for athletes. But the same situation does exist for schools with arts programs that do hold the auditions. I know that schools with a BFA degree, have heavy departmental say on who gets into their programs, and there are times that admissions rubberstamps their choices.</p>
<p>"My own dd is a very strong student but what distinguishes her is her writing. In every setting she's entered, from the time she was very young, she's stood out as unusual. She's won awards in school and out, she's been flagged by college professors, she's widely admired in her competitive private high school and I've been told again and again how unusual she is. "</p>
<p>There are a lot of excellent writers. I say that as a former journalism professor, a former member of the Harvard Crimson staff, and as the parent of a kid who was one of the country's top high school journalists -- doing freelance articles for some of the country's top newspapers and even working an out of state internship for a professional daily newspaper after his junior year in h.s.</p>
<p>He was National Merit Commended, a URM and Ivy legacy. Did he get any additional recruitment for Ivies than most kids (particularly URMs) with top scores get? No. Would the Ivies get along quite fine without him: Yes.</p>
<p>I've recruited for newspaper interns at HPY, and their publications were filled with stellar talent. Most Ivy students are very good writers. Many are outstanding writers. </p>
<p>While there are many second tier and even first tier colleges that would be thrilled to have the kind of rare student with exceptional writing talent that my S and your D have, the Ivies don't need to go out of their way to find such students.</p>
<p>For instance, without H doing anything special to recruit writers, there are many award winning writers in my Harvard class. Presumably, the same is true of most Harvard classes. H also has a variety of publications: a daily newspaper that's the only daily morning newspaper in Cambridge, a weekly newspaper, a humor magazine, a literary journal -- and those are just some of the student publications that I'm familiar with. They don't have problems getting students to voluntarily work for those publications. Indeed, the Crimson has long been known for making the "comp" (process in which students try out for the staff) as difficult as possible. Still, it's flooded with wannabee writers.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, at some schools with accredited journalism programs (which no Ivies have at the undergrad level), professors have to beg even journalism students to write for their school papers -- which often even pay people to work for them (Most of the Harvard newspaper staff work very hard for no money). Go figure!</p>
<p>wow!! this forum is really coming along.!!!</p>