Simple solution to it all

<p>
[quote]
. 1. anyone who says college admissions is fair is ignorant.
2. anyone who says college admissions doesn't discriminate against race/gender is ignorant.

[/quote]

True.</p>

<p>
[quote]
many people get in b/c they're a urm girl.

[/quote]

I don't like the way this is said; it implies that URMs or girls are chosen over superior candidates only because they are minorities. Truth is, they are chosen over equal candidates and are probably pushed over the edge by their diversity status or whatever.</p>

<p>But yeah, basically everyone in this thread is right; this whole thing is just another excuse to share our opinions in a place where it doesn't matter if anyone actually cares.</p>

<p>i heard that mit has a big database of past admissions essays and subsequent performance. they feed new admissions essays into a computer program which looks for correlations between the new batch and batches past which generates admissions decisions.</p>

<p>don't worry about gender, race or background issues, all you have to do is plagiarize a few sentences from richard feynman's autobiographies and you're in!</p>

<p>Several years back, I heard indirectly from a faculty member there that faculty there wasn't too happy about students they admitted. And they did an experiment ( to what scale I didn't recalled) tried to do admission themself and found out what they would selected and what admission office actually selected were very different group. But they also found out how much work were involved and decided not to continue. </p>

<p>Well, no one want to be rejected from a great institution like MIT,but they could also make mistake. There are many other schools out there. If you have right stuff you could still get a good education. You could use MIT's OCW as well. You could apply for MIT's graduate school four years later. This time faculty will evaluate you.</p>

<p>Let's not be silly. MIT professors (as well as MIT students) sit on the current selection committees at MIT, so that story is distorted to say the least.</p>

<p>These things are complicated and I have mixed feelings on professionalized admissions offices (vs. the fully faculty-oriented grad school type approach). But I don't think anyone is served by this type of rumor.</p>

<p>I think we are all tired of reactionary and dumb responses to this question.</p>

<p>The crux of the matter:</p>

<p>"a simple decision not to take a factor like gender or race into account as a tip factor when applicants are similarly qualified"</p>

<p>Since we are not able at this point to answer the burning question of which model is better would it not be wise to devise objective criteria to study the MIT and Caltech admission policy? Maybe we will then be able, in ten or twenty years, to quantify the results and once and for all answer the question. Until then we are left with only our opinions.... and we all know what that's worth.</p>

<p>I hear MIT eats babies for breakfast. Indirectly from several faculty members, in fact.</p>

<p>Since the disputation was hitting a new low, I thought I'd try to ask a substantive (and more philosophical) question that this issue raises.</p>

<p>The best justification of affirmative action is that it is a way to resolve dilemmas between applicants when their qualifications are similar. Race and gender are only used as tip factors in close cases. Thus, we can add diversity and redress wrongs without sacrificing merit or justice, since nobody gets in because of being female, or because of being from a certain ethnic group. Applicants get serious consideration based only on their own merit, but subsequently race or gender can play a role in close cases. This is my best effort at a sympathetic summary of the case, and I hope it's fair. Please kick me if it isn't.</p>

<p>The point I'd like to make is simple. The legitimacy of that story hangs on the definition of "similar" or "close". Depending on how much you blur your vision, there can be a few comparable cases or very many. If you zoom out a little bit from our parochial academic world, then almost the entire applicant pool looks the same. All I'm saying is that what "close" means is a judgment call, and the entire execution of affirmative action depends on how you make that call.</p>

<p>The reason I like the idea of faculty-run admissions (like in grad school) is that faculty members tend to be no-nonsense about the definition of "close". For them it tends to mean "I'd be willing to flip a coin to decide which of these will be my collaborator." I know professors who are passionate advocates of affirmative action, and these are the cases in which they're willing to use it.</p>

<p>The incentives in that situation seem to be better than they are in undergraduate admissions. When UG admissions officers decide whether two applicants are close or aren't, they don't really pay directly for mistakes -- the way a professor would if she took a less able candidate as a grad student.</p>

<p>At my most reasonable, I think the quality of affirmative action lies entirely in the execution. That's why CC debates on the topic are often disappointing -- advocates give the argument I gave in the second paragraph of this post without realizing that it's empirically vacuous. (And opponents do a lot of dumb things too.)</p>

<p>If we were to have a serious discussion about this, we'd talk about what "close" should mean in practice, and how the people deciding what it means are incentivized to make good calls. Sorry to be such an economist about it.</p>

<p>"2. anyone who says college admissions doesn't discriminate against race/gender is ignorant."</p>

<p>Hey, doesn't Caltech have a totally merit-based admissions(and an approx. 7 to 3 male-to-female ratio)?</p>

<p>Ben, never apologize for being "such an economist". I've been married to an economist for decades, and I am sorry to admit it took me many years to appreciate the extraordinary value of the economist's approach to many questions of this sort.</p>

<p>"That's why CC debates on the topic are often disappointing -- advocates give the argument I gave in the second paragraph of this post without realizing that it's empirically vacuous."</p>

<p>Perfect.</p>

<p>Going a bit off topic here but this still has to do with the concept of 'holistic' admissions.</p>

<p>Last year a 2 time USAMO qualifier with 2300+ SATs, research positions, varsity sports and all that other standard stuff got rejected at MIT. He was of Russian-Jewish ethnicity so maybe this worked against him, but then again it's possible that he wasn't qualified enough or wrote crappy essays. But then two URMs got in with stats that were crap compared to this Russian guy's(4.1 and 4.2 GPA and roughly 2100 SATs with pretty generic ECs), and I know for a fact that one of them INVENTED a sob story to put in his essay. BTW, these were upper class kids. One had a cardiosurgeon father and the other had parents who were both directors at Cisco, and both of these guys went to a private school that charges 15K a year so don't give me BS about them not having opportunities or being dissuaded from technological professions(look at their parents). Does MIT honestly think these URMs can contribute more to the intellectual environment than the Russian kid? If they'd been Asian or White how would you have rated their chances?</p>

<p>Ben, as usual you get right to the heart of the issue. Certainly the definition of "close" is open to wide interpretation. Maybe the bottom line for determination of "close" by gender could be answered by one simple question: is the true and unbiased m:f ability ratio in math,science and engineering 70:30 or is it closer to, (but in my opinion unlikely equal to exactly), 50:50?</p>

<p>Ben, I think your summary was entirely fair, and I don't disagree with anything you've said.</p>

<p>I guess I'm more willing to take a broad view of "close", because I think gender- and race-based disparities in higher education are a social problem rather than a genetics problem. In order to produce highly qualified people of any sort, you have to convince them first that they want to be highly qualified, and I think our current policies will reap rewards in the future, although perhaps not immediately.</p>

<p>I guess I'm a fan of affirmative action policies because I don't see many other options out there.</p>

<p>(And if Ben has to apologize for being an economist, I suppose I will have to apologize for being a cell biologist -- I am somewhat uncomfortable with things I can't quantify, and it frustrates me to no end that it's not possible to take something, say a measuring cup, and measure the amount of merit that's in somebody's head. This whole debate would be much simplified if that were possible, and I would be a much happier camper.)</p>

<p>Think of it this way: If MIT were fair, it would be a school with a 70% male population. That would suck. Who cares if it is unfair? I would rather it be much more difficult to be accepted but more enjoyable on the campus than the other way around. Just deal with the fact that if you were lacking a certain body part you would have better chances of getting in.</p>

<p>okay i'll bite. I think your summary suffers from a bit of tunnel vision.</p>

<p>Ben- all that foofy idealism about fair and unfair down to a hair seems to me only useful as something to cling to when reality and results fail. The reality is that admissions isn't some holy process, to present yourself in front of an admissions committee is not to stand for the final judgment. Admissions officers are not trying to play god and sift out the empirically "most deserving". What admissions officers ARE trying to do is build for themselves the best possible class of 1000 or 250 or however many students. "Best" is a subjective thing and varies from school to school, eye to eye. And if the "best" for the school is to have 20 or some odd oboe players, 100 writers, 500 math geniuses and 52 single mothers, then SO BE IT. Colleges have no obligation to you to validate however hard you've worked in high school with an acceptance. I don't really see this as a 2-way street. More like 2 ONE way streets that happen to meet somewhere in the middle (hopefully). Colleges pick the students they think would be best for their class, the students pick the colleges they think will be best for their 4 years, and if we're lucky, one or more of those would overlap and you get to go to college. Naturally there are other motives such as yield on one side and trophy hunting on the other side but essentially that's the relationship.</p>

<p>"Fair" is then out of the question. What is often perceived as a fair process is the admissions officers doing what serves the college best. Oh yes, that kid with the 343597 SAT score got in over the kid with the 200. It's "fair". But is it? The college have no motivation to take the kid with the 200, it would be hurting itself to reject "stronger" applicants in favor of weaker ones. What's the ultimate goal of a University? Well, there are plenty of goals, but I think it all comes down to reputation as an institute of higher learning, self sustenance, that sort of thing: kids keep applying, kids keep attending, world stands in awe. So what if a college thinks what is best for it is a 50-50 gender ratio or 20% minorities?? It keeps the students happy, it looks good for the college, it keeps the college chugging along happily. Everyone's happy, except the kid bemoaning the plague that has fallen upon him by his efforts in high school going "unrewarded". Even he'll get over it eventually. </p>

<p>So I guess my point is, and I should make it quick I have a final right now, that you can tout all the philosophy you want, but the matter of the fact is, kids at these institutions that practice AA are generally of equal caliber as the students at institutions that do not. Take MIT vs. Caltech, say (even though I would argue that Caltech is not entirely a "meritocracy" and I'm sure you would agree). Okay, the average caliber of the MIT student is no higher no lower than Caltech's. You cannot argue that the average output, in terms of contribution to society, is any more from Caltech Students than MIT students after graduation. You definitely cannot argue that Caltech has a better reputation than MIT, or that it offers a "better" education. You can argue they cater to different crowds, but I'd point to the pool of cross-applicants. But what do I think IS a little different? (And I hope you dont take any offense to that it doesn't benefit me any beyond making this point to promote MIT/denounce Caltech) Given the choice between the two institutions, students tend to choose to come to MIT. Which means that MIT in someway offers something to the students that Caltech does not. And I don't believe it's the education or research opportunities or access to JPL. I believe it's the social atmosphere they create here, BY, sure, concocting it a bit during admissions, looking for those that would contribute "best" to the atmosphere, the inventors, the creators, the quirky (like we advertise) but yes ALSO the diverse. You can argue all day about whether it's fair or it is not but when it comes down to it it's the results that matter. And MIT or whatever school's methods have produced good results.</p>

<p>Now, I have to go. Don't go too crazy on typos.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Given the choice between the two institutions, students tend to choose to come to MIT. Which means that MIT in someway offers something to the students that Caltech does not… I believe it's the social atmosphere they create here, BY, sure, concocting it a bit during admissions… You can argue all day about whether it's fair or it is not but when it comes down to it it's the results that matter. And MIT or whatever school's methods have produced good results.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And one reason Harvard is a bigger deal than Columbia is that the former instituted a Jew quota in time and the latter didn't. I'm not suggesting the situations are comparable. But the popularity and prestige of the outcome are not the only qualities by which posterity will judge a policy.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, your cynicism in the last post warms my heart -- it really does. I'm glad that someone pointed out that MIT pursues its interests and students pursue theirs, and that's the way it is. You're just not a very good cynic yet -- you suffer from a little tunnel vision. You forgot that the game has participants beside MIT and its applicants. There are also you and me. And 299,999,998 other people, to estimate conservatively. In the long run, universities -- and other corporations, by the way -- have to care a lot about what these seemingly irrelevant individuals think. So when you say,
[quote]
"Fair" is then out of the question.

[/quote]
you're wrong.</p>

<p>That debate that starts in the freshman dorm hallway where one guy says, "Fairness and justice matter" and the other guy says, "No, only power matters" does have a resolution. Both matter. Power in the obvious way, but fairness and justice matter too, or at least the norms about those things held by the broader society and enforced through political and economic institutions (which are, of course, instruments of power).</p>

<p>I don't mean to get too abstract. Universities, at least ones that get vast amounts of public money, are answerable to society's ideas about what they ought to do -- not in an abstract way, but in a quite concrete Congress-can-regulate-their-behavior kind of way. So the debate about the legitimacy and fairness of MIT's affirmative action policies matters.</p>

<p>While this point is lost on pebbles, it is definitely not lost on MIT. The institution has devoted tremendous resources to making the difficult argument that its self-interested affirmative action policies also mesh with social ideas about fairness. They don't do that because filing Supreme Court briefs is fun (or cheap), but because policies widely considered unfair don't fare well in the long run.</p>

<p>But the policy in question is unfair, and most</a> Americans agree with me and not with you or MIT. It's unfair when student B grows up in a better neighborhood than student A, has richer parents, goes to a better school, and isn't quite as smart -- to the point where not a single professor would say B is smarter than A -- but B gets in and A doesn't; that alone is unfair, but it's more unfair when the reason is race. And the reason, at least as of 1999, often is</a> race:
[quote]
“We do have affirmative action at MIT which means that we will admit every qualified African American, Mexican American, Puerto Rican and Native American student in our pool,” [Dean of Admissions Marilee] Jones said.<a href="But%20I%20don't%20need%20to%20tell%20you%20that%20not%20every%20qualified%20student%20of%20other%20races%20gets%20in.%20Admissions%20says%20that%20plenty.">/quote</a> It's simple. A policy that benefits</a> mostly upper middle class minorities in the name of a crude numerical equality is an offensive, racist anachronism. And an injustice. It's not a massive injustice, but it's an injustice. And it doesn't stop being wrong because it's not big. Nor does it stop being wrong if its perpetrated by a private institution. Nor does it stop being wrong if, as you astutely point out, it serves MIT's interests. </p>

<p>MIT does have the right, for now, to do something self-interested that I and most others think is unfair. But it sure doesn't have a right to a free pass on it. Unsavory conversations like this are part of the price you pay (look! cynicism!). I'm always puzzled by the displeasure expressed by defenders of the policy, and of MIT at large, when people correctly remark that AA benefits some people over others just because of physical traits, in stark and offensive contrast to MIT's and America's broader ideals. (And the less clueless the person saying this, the more offended they get.) What, did you expect us not to notice? To piously accept that the admissions process is complex and so it's fair for you to implement whatever bias is convenient that day, no matter how obviously backwards the results are? I'm sympathetic to the observation that opponents of AA can be unrealistic, but that right there is the la-la land part of your argument. A defective policy deserves no deference. The public has the right to protest a process -- even a private process -- that's unjust. People will watch and read and write and vote to express their discontent with an injustice, private or public. Often, that's the way they stop the injustice.</p>

<p>So that's why, every chance I get, I point out the problems with the patronizing policy of different scales for different colors. It's not much, but it's a way to impose costs, if only small ones, for choosing what's easy over what's right. I think you'd agree that this is the cynical thing to do.</p>

<p>I would like to briefly remind both Ben and pebbles that the majority is not always right -- I don't think it's relevant either that cross-admits tend to choose MIT over Caltech, nor do I think it's relevant that the majority of Americans don't favor affirmative action.</p>

<p>Given that huge numbers of highly qualified students are applying for a small number of spots in elite schools, I think all admissions decisions are unfair. And given that it's a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea, I think private universities are justified in implementing the policy that will best serve their interests and best serve society at large. And they do believe that it will benefit society at large -- that it's the socially just thing to do.</p>

<p>I mean, assume --
Student A is from a wealthy white family, has good grades and test scores in a suburban public school, and participates in expensive extracurricular pursits. He has taken two SAT prep classes, and his family has hired a consultant to package his college application.
Student B is from a poor URM family, and has good grades in an unchallenging urban school. He took the SAT once with no preparation, and he has no guidance at all in preparing his college applications.
Both students apply to College C and University D. College C practices affirmative action; Student B gets in, but Student A does not. University D does not practice affirmative action; Student A gets in, but Student B does not.</p>

<p>How are either of those situations fair?</p>

<p>The implicit assumption in there that affirmative action counters disadvantage is wrong most of the time. As MIT</a> kindly pointed out, if economic, social, or educational disadvantage replaced straight color-of-skin as the criterion for affirmative action, then the race-balancing goals of the program would be much harder to meet.</p>

<p>I agree with you that your hypothetical situations are tough, but if student A is a URM and student B is not, and A gets in partially for that reason, then I think you'd agree that it's definitely unfair, and we should stop putting a finger on the scale on which A is standing.</p>

<p>Mollie, how do you know Student A took SAT prep classes? How do you know the family paid a consultant? Do you assume every student with an SAT score of 2380 has taken a prep class? Has ever taken a practice test? Do you and the adcoms you know assume that every middle class kid had help with the applications? One of the major problems with the current system, in my newly formed opinion, is that the process could only work--even by the measures of the admissions committees--if all of the readers were omniscient. The entire approach is unscientific in the extreme.</p>

<p>"nor do I think it's relevant that the majority of Americans don't favor affirmative action."</p>

<p>Perhaps you should ask why. Most people I know who dislike AA do so on the grounds that it treats people as members of groups, rather than as individuals.</p>

<p>Most people I know who dislike AA dislike it on personal grounds -- that it will impede their own chances at Outcome X.</p>

<p>In my high school government class, we used to have "debates" (read: all out dirty fighting) about AA. There were eleven white kids and one black kid in that class; the sides came down eleven to one, and I'm sure I don't have to spell out who was pro-AA and who was rabidly anti-AA. I was one who felt AA was unfair to us poor, put-upon white kids, et cetera. Now that I have no dog in the fight (and now that I have actually experienced the benefits of a diverse school and living group), I can clearly see the benefits of promoting diversity as a virtue.</p>

<p>I think economic AA is much more socially palatable option, but given the level of racism that still exists in this country, I think economic and race-based AA are still needed. </p>

<p>At any rate, I suppose I should clarify that everything I've said on this thread (and everything I say on CC) is my opinion only -- I'm not an MIT admissions officer, and nothing I say should be interpreted as such.</p>