<p>If, as some claim, the women applicant pool is more qualified (Which I do believe to some extent), and hence brings the gender balance to an even ratio, why does MIT not practice a completely gender blind admissions process? Simply have the requirement that gender not be hinted at in any part of the application. And further, this concept could also be applied to race. The logistics of implementing this change would not be too complicated. It would resolve all this controversy, and place focus on the internal qualities of the person, rather than the external characteristics over which the person has no control.</p>
<p>How could this be achieved? I do not believe it is all that impractical, and I am positive the brilliant minds at MIT could work it out. Some suggestions...</p>
<p>Applicant names should be assigned a number by computer. Pronouns and names should be removed from all parts of the application (And this rule mentioned on the application and recommendation forms). No pictures of the person should be included (There are plenty of other mediums for supplemental materials). Activities which may reveal gender could be ranked by another committee (I believe MIT already ranks these on a scale of 1-5). And basically, removing any hints before the judging committee makes the decisions.</p>
<p>As a precedent, I believe that the Siemens Westinghouse competition actually requires these rules in its application to insure fairness. Why not MIT?</p>
<p>The short answer is that MIT believes an applicant's race and/or gender is an important part of his or her context, and therefore that it's relevant information.</p>
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The short answer is that MIT believes an applicant's race and/or gender is an important part of his or her context, and therefore that it's relevant information.
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</p>
<p>I do not believe you can justify that. How does simply being of a certain race or gender imply anything about "context"? Unless you are suggesting that MIT evokes racial and gender stereotypes when evaluating "context"...?</p>
<p>Let us also keep in mind that race and gender are qualities which no one has control over (... in most cases). Is it really fair to consider that relevant information?</p>
<p>Gender matters significantly in some cases - for instance, I plan to major in one of the "physical" engineering courses, and my parents have always dissuaded me from pursuing that passion solely because I'm female and they're worried about girls majoring in "men's" fields. Actually, this has become a major part of my identity, and I've become only more determined to prove my worth. I wrote about this, along with how as an Asian immigrant I'm pressured to go into medicine (since it's seen as the pinnacle of "success").</p>
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Gender matters significantly in some cases - for instance, I plan to major in one of the "physical" engineering courses, and my parents have always dissuaded me from pursuing that passion solely because I'm female and they're worried about girls majoring in "men's" fields.
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</p>
<p>Isn't this exactly that, a gender stereotype? There are men who are dissuaded from science as well, and women who are encouraged. In my own case, my parents heavily discouraged (And still discourage) my decision to pursue a physics degree (They fear I will starve). Yes, being Asian it was medicine or law for them. Like you, that only encouraged me further. But would I get the same benefit of a doubt? </p>
<p>Simply gender nor race can tell the story, and cannot establish context.</p>
<p>Or have I, by revealing that I am Asian and male and pursuing physics, given away the fact that I am geeky, antisocial, boring, shy, and quiet? I am anything but.</p>
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In my own case, my parents heavily discouraged (And still discourage) my decision to pursue a physics degree (They fear I will starve). Like you, that only encouraged me further.
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<p>In your case, the reasons are different than mine - your parents are concerned re. job outlook. Mine are concerned due to their believing of the gender stereotype and its proliferation in the real world. I'm not denying that gender (and ethnic) stereotypes exist, but I believe one's gender and ethnicity should be divulged in apps to form a complete picture of the applicant - ie. how they reacted to such stereotypes.</p>
<p>True, you have no control over gender/ethnicity, but you still have to deal with their real life impacts in your own unique way. And that should be taken into account.</p>
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Gender alone does not tell the story, and does not establish the context.
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<p>Of course. That's why college applications have more than 1 question.</p>
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In your case, the reasons are different than mine - your parents are concerned re. job outlook. Mine are concerned due to their believing of the gender stereotype and its proliferation in the real world.
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I do not see how the end result (Parents threatening not to pay my tuition) is any different even if the reasons are. But that is simply my own opinion. And consider, that there are plenty of female applicants who have not experienced this type of opposition. They would likely still receive the same benefit, on basis of gender alone.</p>
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Of course. That's why college applications have more than 1 question.
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And since gender does not tell the story, it should be irrelevant. </p>
<p>I still do believe my original post outlines a great solution to this whole issue.</p>
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And since gender does not tell the story, it should be irrelevant.
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<p>Gender is simply another piece to the greater puzzle.</p>
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And consider, that there are plenty of female applicants who have not experienced this type of opposition. They would likely still receive the same benefit, on basis of gender alone.
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<p>That is up to the admissions officer to decide and evaluate, not for you to assume and judge.</p>
<p>Furthermore, the Siemens competition and MIT admission require two completely different sets of information. Siemens is dependent on pure research - facts, data, etc. MIT does not evaluate based on pure data (ex. only SAT scores) - MIT seeks to evaluate the person in qualitative terms, thus requiring such qualitative factors such as gender, ethnicity, background, personal history, etc. Race and ethnicity are part of a person's pure identity, thus part of their "internal qualities."</p>
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I believe one's gender and ethnicity should be divulged in apps to form a complete picture of the applicant - ie. how they reacted to such stereotypes.
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You say that it helps to form a complete picture. The only complete picture it helps form is based upon unsubstantiated stereotypes applied an applicant.</p>
<p>Oh yeah? And what sort of stereotypes are heaped upon an applicant, once someone declares herself to be "female" or xxx ethnicity? Please, give admissions officers some more credit. And how big of a role does this stereotype play? Besides, the basic fact that admissions decisions are made by humans introduces bias and personal stereotypical beliefs to the process; if you truly want to make this entire process "fair", write a computer program to sort out the admits/rejects. </p>
<p>Please, if you want to continue this debate, do so by PM. Pebbles is correct in saying that this horse has long been beaten to death.</p>
<p>Farsight: As a siemens national finalist I think I can provide some insight on the competition, seeing as I've spoken with the chairman of the Siemens Foundation on this very matter. Gender only gets you to the regional finals level. As one of my friends says, semifinalist weeds out shabby projects, regional finalist is where they've decided to give you a chance, and nationals is where the big guns come out. Gender/looks/people skills play a HUGE role in the later parts of the competition. The truth is that when you walk on stage, you can't change your competitors or the rules. So learn to excel in the bounds you are placed.</p>
<p>You can argue all you want that girls have an advantage or no advantage, but the truth is you can't change how it is. The other truth is that many other guys excel and get into MIT, and you should be competing with them. Leave the girls alone!</p>
<p>BTW: the siemens competition includes a mentor recommendation letter. Don't be shocked to learn that the national finalists mentors wrote 3-4 page single spaced recommendations, sometimes judges pick favorites, outside help that isn't reported, etc. There are a lot of factors in life you can't control, get overit.</p>
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And what sort of stereotypes are heaped upon an applicant, once someone declares herself to be "female" or xxx ethnicity? Please, give admissions officers some more credit. And how big of a role does this stereotype play?
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Actually, I don't think the stereotype actually has much of a role at all. In fact, I believe MIT instead hides gender quotas under the guise of this stereotype. The difference in 2003 is an acceptance rate of ~11.6% for males, and ~29.3% for females which is too substantial of a difference to be accounted for simply by difference in applicant pool quality. I am sure that both figures are lower now, but the ratio between is still similar. Of course, this has been beat to death as you've stated.</p>
<p>But this fact is irrelevant to my original point in my first post. If MIT truly practiced race-gender blind admissions, they would simply do away with these two criteria when evaluating applicants. And as I suspect, end up with a class much closer to 70% male, and 30% female more closely mirroring the distribution of the applicant pool. </p>
<p>Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps the quality of the female applicant pool really is more than double that of the male applicant pool. But we will never know with the current admissions process.</p>
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And as I suspect, end up with a class much closer to 70% male, and 30% female more closely mirroring the distribution of the applicant pool.
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<p>This point has also been beaten to death. So in the end, instead of of truly arguing for the elimination of stereotypes, the debate once agains turns on the female applicant vs. female accepted numbers. Congrats on joining the cohort of guys who feel that being XX is the ticket to MIT acceptance.</p>
<p>Well Differential, at least you're not arguing that the currently process is fair. And I agree, a person cannot do much to change the way it is. That does not mean the topic cannot be discussed.</p>
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Life's not fair. Those rejected 2400-ers will gladly espouse this view.
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Absolutely. The notion I truly find reprehensible is the the admissions committee's claim that it is fair. I would in fact, be much more accepting if MIT (And other colleges) simply admitted that there are racial and gender (And I certainly realize this works in favor of males at many other colleges) quotas implemented.</p>
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I would in fact, be much more accepting if MIT (And other colleges) simply admitted that there are racial and gender (And I certainly realize this works in favor of males at many other colleges) quotas implemented.
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<p>Oh, no, don't expect them to come out and say "XX or XY have less chance in admissions." Instead they conveniently call it "Affirmative Action." Now granted, I see the reasoning behind AA and support it to a certain extent. However, I still steadfastly believe that gender/ethnicity must be taken into account as part of the "bigger" picture, but must not overshadow a person's application. You cannot eliminate gender/ethnicity wholly from the picture. But you cannot also admit someone with gender/ethnicity as the main reason. Of course, in between everything's pretty murky.</p>
<p>We ALL (at least, ppl with some basic knowledge) know that all colleges especially ones big in math/science/engineering including MIT discriminates against certain gender and race. </p>
<p>Why discuss? we all know it is there, and many people get in b/c they're a urm girl. </p>
<p>from that we can lead to a few conclusions:
1. anyone who says college admissions is fair is ignorant.
2. anyone who says college admissions doesn't discriminate against race/gender is ignorant.</p>
<p>So, please, be more logical!</p>
<p>The truth is the truth, and everytime CC just discusses and debates.
Either way, no colleges will change this unfair system. The least they can do, however, is to admit their dirty deeds, which I doubt anyone has the guts to. So, live with it! Life isn't fair.
(PS, I'm an international asian male, so it's not like I'm benefetting from this)</p>
<p>Okay, so it's obvious that Farsight's proposed solution sucks. Just a few of the reasons why: It requires an unnatural sanitizing process that would be hugely labor intensive. It would prohibit applicants from talking about experiences related to their race and gender in essays, which can be extremely useful for demonstrating aspects of an applicant's character. And, in the end, it still wouldn't accomplish the goal. I'll bet you many dollars that even from a "sanitized" application, I'd be able to tell the gender of an applicant much more than half the time.</p>
<p>But none of that is even the point. Technically, admissions officers can tell whether your last name starts with a vowel or consonant, but nobody advocates scrambling the last name. Why? Because there's no bias based on the initial letter of the last name, even though there easily could be in principle. So the answer to this problem, if it is a problem, isn't some convoluted scheme to launder applications, but a simple decision not to take a factor like gender or race into account as a tip factor when applicants are similarly qualified. Admissions could easily make a policy change, and even though they would know gender or race, it wouldn't matter to them. The debate should be about whether that change would be a good thing. Don't waste time debating something dumb.</p>